board77

I love the fact that Faramir's Dream was even in the film but 1.)should it have been given to Eowyn? and 2.) surely the most logical place for it was where Tolkien put it ... in the House of Healing.

In the film, it's awkwardly sandwiched between the two halves of Pippen and the palantir which might have flowed better as one continuous scene.
(One of my pet peeves is PJ's predilection for rapid intercutting between unrelated scenes ... makes me dizzy ) But that's a whole other subject.

Anyway, for the very few (Jnyusa!) who have not yet seen ROTK EE ....


Aragorn enters the great hall and sees Eowyn sleeping on a couch by the fire.
He covers her bare feet with her robe and then moves to cover her shoulders.




Eowyn: What time is it?

Aragorn: Not yet dawn.

He turns to leave, she grasps his hand and he turns back to her with a concerned look.

Eowyn: I dreamed I saw a great wave climbing over green lands and above the hills

I stood upon the brink. It was utterly dark in the abyss before my fate. A light shone behind me,



but I could not turn … I could only stand there … waiting. (a single tear rolls down her cheek)

Aragorn gently releases her hand.

Aragorn: Night changes many thoughts …. Sleep Eoywn. Sleep ... While you can.



.
.
.

For contrast, here's from the book:

ROTK: The Steward and the King.

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'It reminds me of Numenor,' said Faramir, and wondered to hear himself speak.
'Of Numenor?' said Eowyn.
'Yes.' said Faramir. 'of the land of Westernesse that foundered, and of the great dark wave climbing over green lands and above the hills, and comming on, darkness unescapable. I often dream of it.'

'Then you think that the Darkness is comming?' said Eowyn. 'Darkness unescapable?' And suddenly she drew close to him.

'No,' said Faramir, looking into her face. 'It was but a picture in my mind.
I do not know what is happening. The reason of my waking mind tells me that great evil has befallen and we stand at the end of days. But my heart says nay; and all my limbs are light, and a hope and a joy are come to me that no reason can deny. Eowyn, Eowyn. White Lady of Rohan, in this hour I do not believe that any darkness will endure!' And he stooped and kissed her brow.

<sw00n>

It makes more sense for the dream to be in HOH, does it not? I'd prefer Faramir to speak of the image of drowing Numenor but Eowyn could have been given the dream ... although Numenorean blood is much more
dilute in her than in Faramir. Isn't it? I seem to remember reading a very geeky TORC thread where Eoywn's ancestry is gone into in minute detail.

Any thoughts?

Jn hasn't seen RotK EE yet? Why not???

I absolutely adore Eowyn's Dream. The more I see and hear it, and the more I think about it, the more in awe I am that the filmmakers were able to successfully incorporate something so obscure, and yet so important to Tolkien, into the story that they were telling.

Eowyn's dream is different then Faramir's dream, which in turn is different then Tolkien's own dream which inspired the whole story of the drowning of Numenor. Eowyn's dream is about how quickly despair can overcome someone, and how helpless a person can feel in the face of despair. And oh does Miranda nail it. Nowhere is the combination of vulnerability, sadness, strength and nobility of Eowyn better captured in the film then here.

And I have to disagree that it would have been better to have it in HoH in the film (though of course the dream is perfectly placed there in the book, I would never say otherwise). Eowyn's dream is all about her relationship with Aragorn, not her relationship with Faramir. It is in essence a premonition that she is going to lose Aragorn, that he is going to reject her love. From that point of view, I think it is perfectly placed. Particularly since the film was never going to do much to develop a relationship between Eowyn and Faramir in much detail in the last hour of an 11 and a half hour movie.

And I really love how the scene reflects on Aragorn. He knows that he and Eowyn have no future together. Yet the tenderness that he shows her is if anything more touching for its platonic nature. I literally am unable to think of another scene in any movie in which a man is shown to care for woman in such a way.

In the book, Faramir recitation of the same dream comes across very differently. It much less personal, and more about the history of Numenor and Faramir's connection with it then about his own personal despair. Could it have been included in a film in an effective way? I'm sure it could have. But not in the Jackson/Walsh/Boyens version. I would rather have them adapt it to fit their vision then make a halfhearted attempt to fit in because it was there in the book (a perfect example of something like this is Faramir saying "Now we understand each other, Frodo Baggins").

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Eowyn's dream is all about her relationship with Aragorn, not her relationship with Faramir. It is in essence a premonition that she is going to lose Aragorn, that he is going to reject her love

I never considered this idea.





I had thought it a dream bred of the stress of knowing that battle was drawing close. Eowyn, at least in the book, felt that her only path was the one of battle... her dream, during this last hour in her home, always seemed to me a sleeping fear of complete loss in battle.

Did she really fear at this point that she would lose Aragorn's love? I'm not certain she knew about Arwen yet, and there really was no good reason for her not to hope that she and Aragorn would be together.

This is an interesting thought!

Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:

The more I see and hear it, and the more I think about it, the more in awe I am that the filmmakers were able to successfully incorporate something so obscure, and yet so important to Tolkien, into the story that they were telling.

But V. it makes no sense! First of all...
Wait, that was some other thread.

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And I really love how the scene reflects on Aragorn. He knows that he and Eowyn have no future together. Yet the tenderness that he shows her is if anything more touching for its platonic nature. I literally am unable to think of another scene in any movie in which a man is shown to care for woman in such a way.

Even though he appears to be leading her on?

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In the book, Faramir recitation of the same dream comes across very differently. It much less personal, and more about the history of Numenor and Faramir's connection with it then about his own personal despair.

Hm, I've always thought this was very much about personal despair. In the book, they are standing at the moment of great change. Something momentous just happened. Logic dictates that victory was impossible, therefore it must have been defeat, as final and inescapable as the destruction of Numenor.

I don't think bFaramir's dream is of academic value. It must've been a nightmare that began in boyhood. And now his "waking mind" expects that nightmare to play out in life. How much more desperate can it get?

And I think it's really touching that Eowyn draws closer to him.

And of course the final paragraph is glorious, as Faramir listens to his heart and finds joy, hope and love.

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Could it have been included in a film in an effective way? I'm sure it could have. But not in the Jackson/Walsh/Boyens version.

Yes, here I agree with you entirely.

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Eowyn's dream is different then Faramir's dream, which in turn is different then Tolkien's own dream which inspired the whole story of the drowning of Numenor.

Letter 163:
I mean the terrible recurrent dream (beginning with memory) of the Great Wave, towering up and comming in ineluctably over the trees and green fields. (I bequethed it to Faramir)

Letter 180:
For when Faramir speaks of his private vision of the Great Wave, he speaks for me. That vision and dream has ever been with me --

Reads very much to me as though little to nothing is changed between Tolkien's own dream and the dream he gave to Faramir.

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Eowyn's dream is all about her relationship with Aragorn, not her relationship with Faramir.

Voronwe, I ... can't ... quite ... accept ... this premise. I'd like to. It would make sense. And if I accept it then I do agree that it is properly placed within the film. But what would make even more sense, would be a script that did not use Faramir's dream as illustration for Eowyn's prophetic despair of loosing Aragorn.

Besides, she never had him in the first place. She knew of someone (if not of Arwen specifically) from questioning him about the Evenstar. She knew that jewel had great significance for him from the way in which Aragorn receives it from Legolas ... she had meant to run to him and seeing the exchange, she looks shattered and stays where she is.

Also, your point re: his platonic tenderness. I agree with Frelga. Aragorn allowed Eowyn to hope. I think he flirted with her in TTT. (Just a woman's intuition 'bout such things ) The 'daughter of kings' scene, when they are leaving Edoras and right before the Warg battle when he wheels his horse around and looks back at her. A meaningful glance.

Again, as I shamelessly follow Frelga around , I agree with her interpretation of bookFaramir's dream. Nothing academic about it. He speaks of great evil and standing at the end of days. Only his new found love for Eowyn prompts him to say he does not believe the darkness will endure.

I think the different interpretations of Aragorn's behaviour by the guys and the gals here are fascinating!

Should I worry when I think both sides are right?

I think it's true that he allows her to have hopes, but I don't think he's "leading her on" - I think he just doesn't want to reject her outright, he's afraid to hurt her. And it's not like he thinks "what an annoying stalker" or so - the glance Sassy mentions, before the warg attack - he cares about her, even though I wouldn't want to determine what exactly he feels for her.
So I'd agree with Voronwe about his caring.
It's also nicely shown when he covers her with the robe - she seems to be asleep, so she wouldn't notice anyway, but he does care that she's alright.


I completely agree with Sass on this:

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But what would make even more sense, would be a script that did not use Faramir's dream as illustration for Eowyn's prophetic despair of loosing Aragorn.

I also think the scene is meant to be about Eowyn and Aragorn, like you say, Voronwe - but using this particular bit of text doesn't make sense.

I like the sceneand since the "I stand upon the brink" part belonged to Eowyn in the book anyway, it did not bother me that much that she also got "the wave"

I think it is a wonderful scene.

And actually, Eowyn's words are closer to those of her character in the book than they are to Faramir's:

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"I stand upon some dreadful brink, and it is utterly dark in the abyss before my feet, but whether there is light behind me a cannot tell. For I cannot turn yet. I wait for some stroke of doom."

I think it is incredibly limiting to interpret the image of the giant wave as some kind of literal and exclusive Numenorian flash-back. To my mind, it is a far more sweeping and inclusive symbol of exactly what I think Tolkien intended: "darkness unescapable". Whatever that darkness is, is open to personal interpretation - despair, death, doubt, corruption. Its meaning and signifigance carries far beyond the two people standing at the walls of Minas Tirith awaiting the great doom of their time. Each character in the tale, in their own time and in their own way, must face the same darkness.

For me, the words have always called to mind actually being caught in the grip of a powerful wave: helplessly being swept along by an irresistable force, surrounded by darkness, tumbled and crushed by a suffocating maelstrom, deperately praying for the strength to ride it out and resurface and breathe once again. Is this thought, along with Eowyn's other words, not representative of her character? Trapped by duty and position, swept up in turmoil and war, surrounded by uncertainty, blindly caught within the wave of her own destiny, desperately pulled towards one who who can rescue her? I think it particularly touching that the screenwriters included the idea of Eowyn being frozen by fear and doubt, unable to turn towards the light (hope, love, renewal), capable only of waiting for it to find her.....or not. This is far more than a glimpse into Numenorian history - it is a glimpse into the human heart.

Ath! So glad you are here to take up Voronwe's banner!

I also think it a wonderful scene ... I rated it a 9.5. Which may seem strange given my apparant criticism. Furthermore, as usual, you do not disappoint when it comes to seeing beyond the concrete (as I am often unable to do until prodded by you or VtF). I love your sweeping concept of a metaphorical tsunami sweeping over the inhabitants of Middle Earth, each according to their personal demons.

Nevertheless.

I still believe I would have preferred to leave Faramir's Numenorean dream to Faramir and invent something entirely different for Eowyn. You'd get no argument from me if the script had shown Eowyn's despair in the same filmic place ... only with a different text ... a different frame of reference.

See, that's just where we part company, Sass. It thrills me and impresses me to no end that that screenwriters were able to use Tolkien's own words and concepts in a new and different way to serve there own interpretation of Tolkien's story. If you just look at the film itself without regard to Tolkien's work those words work better then any substitute words that they could have used in order to avoid using Tolkien's words in the "wrong place".

What I meant to say before but I realize I didn't is that even though the dream is different from Tolkien to Faramir to Eowyn (not so much the words, but the context), it also very much means the same thing. The image of "darkness inescapable" is an incredibly powerful one, and it ties right in with the Tolkien themes of light that we have been discussing in the Silmarillion thread. IMHO, it would have been unfortunate if the filmmakers had avoided using that powerful imagery simply because they weren't using it in the "right" place.

But Voronwë ... Ath quoted the words (some of which were used).

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"I stand upon some dreadful brink, and it is utterly dark in the abyss before my feet, but whether there is light behind me a cannot tell. For I cannot turn yet. I wait for some stroke of doom."

There was no need to include the image of the Great Wave. That's all I'm saying. The quote from book Eowyn says everything about despair and the overwhelming darkness. I completely and totally agree with you that incorporating Tolkien's dialogue in different ways (as was done with Theoden's superb Horse and Rider poem) is often brilliant. Giving Grima Gandalf's words about Eowyn also worked quite well. Having Aragorn say "I have wished you joy since first we met" to Eowyn at his leaving for POTD instead of in HOH also works ... I just would have liked Faramir to speak of the Great Wave ...

Eowyn: I dreamed I saw a great wave climbing over green lands and above the hills

I stood upon the brink. It was utterly dark in the abyss before my fate. A light shone behind me,
but I could not turn … I could only stand there … waiting.

And V, we have to part ways sometime. Our main difference, I think, is that I am less forgiving of the adapting part of the LOTR films. Sometimes, those adaptions felt more like transgressions. To me.

Yes, I agree that that is our main difference.

Wot Athrabeth sed. LOTR is all about despair.
I have little quarrel with PJ et al taking Tolkien's words to cast light on other parts of the story, it frequently works well and I think it does here. If it was a firm early decision to crop the Faramir/Eowyn love story it was an act of grace to rescue this image and use it here. Whether it was edited in well is a different matter.
It is not just female intuition BTW that detects a bit of trifling with Eowyn, particularly compared to book Aragorn's scrupulousness. I remarked on it somewhere quite a while ago. I think he holds her gaze too long, he jokes with her like with no one else and he goes out of his way to engineer an encounter during her sword drill.
Seeing Faramir's musings again in this thread made me think for the first time how banal that first line is, 'It reminds me of Numenor.' It is almost a line from a comedian or bar bore. Given Faramir's high speech it jars.

*sw00ns for Voronwe and Athrabeth*

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LOTR is all about despair.

I think it's all about hope!

Yes, as the mirror image of despair and as the road out of it. To do that Tolkien looks with an acute and understanding eye at the effect of despair on different personalities and how it can or cannot be fought. That image of the overwhelming wave was very intelligently stolen by the film makers to convey Eowyn's feelings of helplessness and doom.
I suspect Tolkien either fought depression himself or observed it closely.

Yes, I very much agree, Tosh.

I've never applied that dream to Éowyn's personal life. I have always considered it to be about the war. And in the charge of the Rohirrim at Pelennor we do see her literally caught up in a wave, carried irresistibly toward death.

As for Aragorn trifling with her, maybe I haven't wanted to see it that way, I don't know—I just attributed it to the blindness some confident, principled people have that if they behave correctly according to their own lights, it's everyone else's fault for misunderstanding their motives. They are "above" modifying their own behavior to prevent misunderstanding by others.