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Lions and elephants on the Great Plains?

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Anthriel
Post subject: Lions and elephants on the Great Plains?
Posted: Thu 18 Aug , 2005 9:41 pm
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Straight from cnn.com:
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DENVER, Colorado (AP) -- If a group of prominent ecologists have their way, lions and elephants could someday be roaming the Great Plains of North America.

The idea of transplanting African wildlife to this continent is being greeted with gasps and groans from other scientists and conservationists who recall previous efforts to relocate foreign species halfway around the world, often with disastrous results.

But the proposal's supporters say it could help save some species from extinction in Africa, where protection is spotty and habitats are vanishing. They say the relocated animals could also restore the biodiversity in North America to a condition closer to what it was before humans overran the landscape more than 10,000 years ago.

Most modern African species never lived on the American prairie, the scientists acknowledge. But some of their biological cousins like mastodons, camels and saber-toothed cats, roamed for more than 1 million years alongside antelope and herds of bison until Ice Age glaciers retreated and humans started arriving.

The rapid extinction of dozens of large mammal species in North America -- perhaps due to a combination of climate change and overhunting -- triggered a landslide of changes to the environmental landscape. Relocating large animals to vast ecological parks and private reserves would begin to repair the damage, proponents say, while offering new ecotourism opportunities to a withering region.

The scientists' plan appears in Thursday's issue of the journal Nature. It is attracting interest from some influential circles, including CNN founder Ted Turner, America's largest private landowner. He owns huge ranches in several states to support his commercial bison operation and personal conservation initiatives.

But the plan is also generating criticism on both sides of the conservation debate.

"It is not restoration to introduce animals that were never here," said University of Washington anthropologist Donald K. Grayson. "Why introduce Old World camels and lions when there are North American species that could benefit from the same kind of effort?"

Others wonder whether people would support African lions making a home on the range, given the opposition to the reintroduction of native wolves in the rural West.

"Just when you think the world has gotten as weird as it can get, something like this comes along," said Steve Pilcher, executive vice president of the Montana Stockgrowers Association.

"I wonder how many calves or lambs it would take to feed a family of lions for a month?" Pilcher mused. "We sort of know what it takes for wolves, but something tells me we would be in a whole new ball game."

Some wildlife conservationists said the idea would further damage the prospects of both threatened species and Africa's hopes for sustainable economic development.

"Such relocations would affect future tourism opportunities for Africa," said Elizabeth Wamba, the East Africa spokeswoman for the International Fund for Animal Welfare in Nairobi, Kenya. "The welfare of the animals would have been reduced by transporting and exposing them to different eco-climatic conditions."

Critics also point to calamitous relocations of foreign species in Australia. Rabbits brought from Europe swarmed across parts of the Outback, and noxious cane toads brought from South America to control bugs in sugar cane fields killed native wildlife.

The authors of the new plan say they are not discouraged.

"We are not saying this is going to be easy," said Cornell University ecologist Josh Donlan, the lead author of the proposal. "There are huge and substantial risks and obstacles."

The plan grew from a retreat at Turner's New Mexico ranch -- a 155,000-acre property in the foothills of the Gila Mountains that contains a mix of ecosystems ranging from desert grasslands to pine forests.

Ecologists are using the ranch to experiment with reintroducing the Bolson tortoise to the region. These 100-pound burrowers were once found across the Southwest, but now survive only in a corner of northern Mexico's Chihuahuan Desert.

The scientists' discussion expanded to consider long-extinct Pleistocene species that have modern counterparts elsewhere in the world.

For example, a larger American cheetah once stalked pronghorn on these lands, with both species evolving special features that enabled them to accelerate to 60 mph. Today, pronghorns rarely are chased, except by the occasional pickup truck.

In Africa, modern cheetahs are being exterminated as vermin, with fewer than 2,000 remaining in some countries. Relocation could help both species retain important traits, the plan's proponents say.

Other living species that are counterparts to Pleistocene-era animals in North America include wild horses and asses, Bactrian camels, elephants and lions.

Donlan concedes that lions would be a tough sell to Americans.

"Lions eat people," he said. "There has to be a pretty serious attitude shift on how you view predators."
Does this strike anyone else as a really dumb idea?


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Frelga
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Posted: Thu 18 Aug , 2005 9:51 pm
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Yes

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Riverthalos
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Posted: Thu 18 Aug , 2005 10:07 pm
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:scratch: :help:

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Thu 18 Aug , 2005 10:22 pm
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Um .... I want to think about it.

The zoo solution is definitely not working. And for every person looking forward to the economic rebirth of Africa via environmental tourism there are ten people secretly planning the Trilateral recolonization of Africa when all the people are dead, never mind the animals.

It depends on how specialized the species' are, and how successfully one imports a proper balance of predators and prey.

I don't know why the stockman should be afraid. This is a new market for their stock. Doesn't sound like anyone is suggesting that lions run free on the great plains.

All the ... what's their name - King Entertainment? ... all their amusement parks around the country have roaming lions within gated areas and the little safari buses take park visitors through the 'savannah.' That's been going on for thirty years at least, and I only know of two accidents, one involving a keeper. The bears in Smoky Mountain Natl Park and the free roaming wolves and cougars pose more of a danger to civilians than gated lions would pose.

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Sassafras
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Posted: Thu 18 Aug , 2005 11:07 pm
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Jnyusa wrote:
All the ... what's their name - King Entertainment? ... all their amusement parks around the country have roaming lions within gated areas and the little safari buses take park visitors through the 'savannah.' That's been going on for thirty years at least, and I only know of two accidents, one involving a keeper. The bears in Smoky Mountain Natl Park and the free roaming wolves and cougars pose more of a danger to civilians than gated lions would pose.
Then all you have is a larger zoo. I oppose keeping wild animals in zoos for the entertainment of silly humans.


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yovargas
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Posted: Thu 18 Aug , 2005 11:17 pm
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Ugh. I don't like this brand of environmentalists.


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Anthriel
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Posted: Thu 18 Aug , 2005 11:35 pm
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I just think this is silliness of the highest order.

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They say the relocated animals could also restore the biodiversity in North America to a condition closer to what it was before humans overran the landscape more than 10,000 years ago.


Errr.... but that was 10K years ago. And we have a new top predator since then, a pretty darned successful one, and that predator will not allow a "balance" to form with these new animals. One person is killed by an imported lion, and not only is that lion dead, but all other lions are gone, too.

Has anyone else thought about what neat trophies these animals would be? There are people who hunt the reintroduced wolves in the Southwest, just 'cause it's cool. How cool would it be to kill a lion? Or an elephant? Or a giraffe? These animals would need armed bodyguards just to protect them from idiots.

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Critics also point to calamitous relocations of foreign species in Australia. Rabbits brought from Europe swarmed across parts of the Outback, and noxious cane toads brought from South America to control bugs in sugar cane fields killed native wildlife.
Ummm... good point. Kudzu is a plant in the South that was introduced to control erosion from run-off water, and now overruns vast acreage of land. The idea of introducing non-native plants/animals is NEVER a good idea.

Only in a zoo-like environment could this scenario be feasible, and like Sassy, I have problems with the zoo idea in general.


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Axordil
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Posted: Thu 18 Aug , 2005 11:44 pm
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Devil's advocate here: can you come up with a better idea to preserve the species, given that nothing in Africa seems to work for more than ten years, that is, until the government running it gets overthrown?


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Anthriel
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Posted: Thu 18 Aug , 2005 11:47 pm
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I guess that the stability of the governments in the homeland of these animals would be key.


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Axordil
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Posted: Fri 19 Aug , 2005 12:41 am
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For one thing, it would give a shot to the people living in them for a decent standard of living, as opposed to being reduced to eating bush meat (that is, anything they can kill).

So, which is easier: finding a way to fit Jumbo into the Oklahoma landscape, or bringing stability to Africa?

Note I didn't say what was more important...:)


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Riverthalos
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Posted: Fri 19 Aug , 2005 1:59 am
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What were they smoking and can I have some?

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Fri 19 Aug , 2005 5:10 am
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First, there's a world of difference between a preserve and a zoo. These animals are on preserves in Africa, too. And they are being poached to extinction there because their environment is managed to the benefit of man. Animals are killed and habitat is eroded as needed.

Second, the answer to whether or not it would work is not as obvious, to me, at least, as it might seem.

The United Nations has managed since the 1960's a worldwide preserve program called Man in the Biosphere. They fund >200 nature preserves around the world in many different countries. That program focuses on fragile ecologies - setting aside habitat for those ecologies that are most vulnerable to fatal confrontation with humanity.

Fragile ecologies are typically marginal ecologies, and their flora and fauna tend to be highly specialized because the habitat opportunities are limited. Because they are highly specialized they do not adapt well even to slight changes in their niches.

What the U.N. is finding is that species are dying out even on these preserves because global warming has made just enough of a difference in the climate of the habitat where it is currently located (and that is always its original native locale) to put survival beyond the adaptive reach of the flora/fauna.

In my opinion, putting relatively unspecialized animals like lions and elephants in a prairie environment has a much greater chance of successthan many of the more 'purist' approaches we have taken in the past - where success would be measured by the restoration of a breeding population genetically robust to mutation and disease.

In my opinion, we've reached the point, ecologically, where we have to save whatever the hell we can, any way that we can. It's not clear to me that this is not exactly the kind of thinking-outside-the-box that's needed right now.

Jn

p.s. things at the top of the pyramid are not likely to overrun the native wildlife. We know what they eat and we know how their numbers will be culled. I think the hunting scenario is quite realistic. It would be different if they were turned loosed in the wild but no one is talking about doing that.

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ToshoftheWuffingas
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Posted: Fri 19 Aug , 2005 9:23 am
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Lions are hardly rare. Do I get a whiff of this would be a cool (ie profitable) safari park idea? Tigers are far more endangered. The Siberian tiger in Canada anyone? The Sumatran tiger in Florida?
I have in the past wondered if anyone had thought of introducing gorillas and orang utans to the Central and South American rain forests.
Like everyone says this is probably a crap idea but faced with extinctions it may pay to be inventive.

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MariaHobbit
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Posted: Fri 19 Aug , 2005 2:32 pm
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JUST when I figure out how to keep white-tail deer out of my garden, they want to introduce ELEPHANTS! :shock: Just what I need. :roll:


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Riverthalos
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Posted: Fri 19 Aug , 2005 2:55 pm
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Elephants are teachable though.

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MariaHobbit
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Posted: Fri 19 Aug , 2005 6:24 pm
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Actually, my boss has hunted in Africa, and says the natives say all it takes to keep elephants out of gardens is a sheet.

Yes, a sheet! Apparently, they won't go through anything they can't see through, so a string of sheets around a garden will keep elephants out. Of course, mine is a very large garden, and would probably take 100 sheets or so....


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Fri 19 Aug , 2005 7:05 pm
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pictures Bungalow Bill racing through Maria's garden in pursuit of an elephant and getting tangled in the sheets

:rofl:

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Ara-anna
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Posted: Fri 19 Aug , 2005 7:14 pm
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What about the Buffalo? And the cougar? and the bear? and the antelope? and the cayote?

Hows about we restore the native animals first.

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MariaHobbit
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Posted: Fri 19 Aug , 2005 7:16 pm
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Yeah, those lions and tigers would beat up on our cute little cougars and bears... :(


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Ara-anna
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Posted: Fri 19 Aug , 2005 7:19 pm
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Well we do have rattlesnakes. :devil:

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