board77

Lidless wrote:

Am I the only one who is beginning to find the wrangling between CG, sf and solictr indulgently adorable, as one would smile benevolently on three toddlers in the playground trying to out-talk eachother with absolutely no chance in real life of changing the others' opinion? So self-contained that there is zero chance they could be in the wrong? So assured in their world-view?

It's cute. It really is.

Am I the only one whose noticed that in the last week I've replied to him twice, maybe three times, no matter how much provocation he provides? (On this board - I have responded to his new screenname on Torc rather much.)

Yes, I am the only one who f***ing notices it.

The whole goddamn "oh my god they're actually arguing in the symposium of all places make it stop" crowd should pay closer attention. Especially after the disgusting display of "poke the cat" that crowd provided hurling abuse at halplm while he was still here but confined to the bike racks.

If you are so "holier than thou" then act holier for a change.

Yeah, everyone says "you guys should restrain yourself" but when I actually do ... this is the crap I get for doing so. Shut up Lidless. And you Jewelsong. And especially you Riverthalos, you're a major contributor to the problem.

I'm offended I didn't get mentioned.

Moi aussi.

I guess the thing is, C_G is partly right. While I find it stupefyingly boring, bum-numbingly boring, hair-pulling-out, eyeball-piercing boring, he evidently doesn't and neither does his alter ego, his doppleganger, his golem, his partner in crime, etc.

The rest of us can leave this thread and go elsewhere, and that's more or less what I intend to do as far as posting is concerned.

I must, of course, (places hand on heart) do my duty as a Ranger and just, you know, scope this thread out now and again.

He missed Rebecca too. Ah well, jewelsong's good company, though I miss the rest of you. I do not, however, miss the bullshit of being a Ranger and having to deal with these monkeys.

He is entirely correct that he has recently been posting very reasonable, level-headed, non-antagonistic posts that have been largely ignored or mocked. I understand CG has built up a very negative reputation with a lot of posters here but when someone's going out of his way to have a discussion instead of sparring contest, it would be the decent thing to reciprocate in kind.

I guess it's hard to work your way out of a reputation that you've gained. So, while it's good that CG stopped (? I haven't been paying attention. But for the sake of argument) arguing like he did before, most people are still going to view any posts in that same light. Anyone with such a reputation is going to have to work pretty hard to change that and it might not get noticed at first. Such is life- people tend to notice the bad more than the good.

Any person here has a right to present ideas before the board for discussion. Any other person has that same right to speak to those ideas and then make their posts about them.

It is obvious that CG and myself do not agree on many things related to the various social sciences and current events. That is fine. That is part of what makes free speech. If CG wants to make post after post claiming that a certain person predicting the current economic calamity that is his right. If I or anyone else wants to present information regarding those posts which present a different opinion, that is also their right.

If anyone wants to comment on that process - that is their right also. But to attempt to intimidate any person by telling them to stop it, or shut up or mind their own business is not right as long as they are obeying the rules of the board.

Agreed with sf, actually - I've been monitoring the situation very closely, and I think that in recent weeks the two have behaved, by and large, in an admirable fashion - and other posters have been doing remarkably little to encourage this situation.

-Pips-

I haven't been in here in weeks and rarely read any of these threads when I do check in. Sorry.

But I hope they have been posting to each other respectfully.

I am absolutely sick over what is happening in Oakland. The streets are being filled with people who are CELEBRATING the person who killed the four police officers. Since when do we celebrate ANYONE'S death? Much less police officers. I don't care how much they claim that there is injustice it does not, in any fashion, give reason to celebrate the murder of another human.

Could you imagine the outrage if police went out and made signs and banners and then walked down main street when an officer kills a person? It absolutely makes me sick that people would celebrate the death of another human.


freddy

I was asked for support to my above post and found the following. I pulled portions that provide show this and also proivided a link to the article.


Loved ones and supporters walked through the streets chanting, "OPD you can't hide, we charge you with genocide!" This one really pisses me off!

Mixon's cousin, Dolores Darnell, 26, addressed the small crowd, calling him "a true hero, a soldier."

Here's the "hero" they speak of: "Authorities say a day before the shooting the 26-year-old fugitive parolee was linked by DNA to the February rape of a 12-year-old girl who was dragged off the street at gunpoint." Plus killing four officers/people.


http://cbs2.com/local/Oakland.police.sh ... lash=false" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

Based on the article above my comment in the previous post that the streets were filling but the video I saw looked to be a huge amount of support. I guess my disgust for the support for a murderer caused the comment. I apologize for this.

freddy

Freddy - no apology is necesasary. You have a perfect right to react the way you did. For what it is worth, I looked at several stories about the huge crowds turning out to mourn the slain officers and they contrast greatly with the small group of people you are angry at.

The fact that there is some anti-police sentiment within the Oakland community speaks to the need to find a way to bridge this cultural gulf. What would you suggest in the way of efforts to do that? Obviously I am not speaking about the criminal element who are obvious police haters by necessity. Rather I refer to normal folks who seem to be against the police when these types of lines are drawn in the sand. What can be done about this?

I can understand the dissatisfaction with police, I really do. Sometimes we are our worst enemies in some of the stupid things we do. Some of it is also the fact that we are the first step in holding people accountable for what they do. Traffic violations, loud music, drunks, etc.

What I can recommend is only going to be based on what we do at my PD. Through what we do, we have a 97% approval rate in a random survey sent to the residents.

First and foremost is the need to treat people with respect. This includes taking the crap that people dish out. It's very difficult to stand there and listen to someone say they are going to find where you live, kill your kids and rape your wife. Yes, this has been said to me.

Hold your officers accountable for their actions. This is difficult because the public generally cries out for an officer to be fired for things that do not merit being fired. Most allegations are unfounded and are a result of someone not liking the fact that the officer was straight forward with them about things. People don't like being told their were wrong. If the officer messes up then hold them accountable if not then let it go.

I think the other big thrust has to come from the community. What is happening in Oakland is proof. They called this person a hero. A man who was linked through DNA to RAPING a 12 year old girl and KILLLED four people. That is not a hero, he's a monster.

In my dealings I have found that the majority of people I deal with that say that they hate the cops, can't give me a reason. It was simply the way they were raised. They have had little or no contact with cops but hate because that is what they were told by friends and relatives. "It's the cops fault that uncle Johnny is in prison for selling drugs."

freddy

I read your post an didn't know what to say. What can you say? But I should have at least acknowledged that you posted it.

I mostly respect the police. At least, I mostly respect the IDEA of a police force and I like and admire and respect many individual police officers, including Feredir. I think they have to do such hard things that I could never do, and I don't mean the "personal danger" stuff, I mean having to go to a house and tell the family their father or daughter is dead in a car accident, that kind of thing. It must be horrible.

From my own experience of having the cops come to my house looking for my oldest son, I can tell you it arouses very, very mixed feelings. As a mother, your first instinct is to protect your child - and this instinct is very powerful. I always knew the cops were doing their job, and I never thought that just because he was my kid he was someone special, or anything like that, but the first reaction, the first feeling, is, I admit, of hatred for these people who are after your child. Unreasonable? Of course it is. And for me it quickly changed to being angry and sad and upset and the thing is, the anger and sadness and "upset" are just as much AT the police as for any other reason. Then that mixture is replaced by resignation and the rational understanding that a lawbreaker must be apprehended, etc. I don't "hate" the cops, but I hate having to deal with them in the course of them doing their duty, if you know what I mean.

However, right now here in BC we are enduring a long and nasty inquiry, The Justice Thomas Braidwood Inquiry, into the taser death of a man at Vancouver Airport over a year ago. The RCMP just blew it, plain and simple. Had there been no video recording of what really happened, they would have got away with their usual stonewalling, lying, and making up "evidence". But the video exists, and 4 cops have been sitting on a chair, under oath, denying the evidence and trying to make out that they behaved properly. The blunt truth is, they did not.

I don't know why the RCMP cannot understand the simple truth that if they said, "Yes, we didn't handle this properly and we apologize and we will do our utmost to make sure it never happens again" - why, public respect for them would increase dramatically. But no, they won't do that. The whole thing is sickening. 4 big strong well armed and armoured young men, within SECONDS of entering the scene immediately tasered this poor man and stood around with their fingers up their butts while he lay dying. There is just no way to get around it, they messed up badly. Then they got together and cooked up their story to cover their asses.

The case is all over the internet, if anyone wants to check it out. I can't really write about it without losing my cool.

I know this behavior isn't typical of all cops everywhere, but it is sadly typical of the current model of the RCMP, that once much-admired bunch of Mounties.

Man, Marco. You off all people. I didn't expect you to dog me about about this...

freddy

Feredir wrote:

Hold your officers accountable for their actions. This is difficult because the public generally cries out for an officer to be fired for things that do not merit being fired. Most allegations are unfounded and are a result of someone not liking the fact that the officer was straight forward with them about things. People don't like being told their were wrong. If the officer messes up then hold them accountable if not then let it go.

vison wrote:

However, right now here in BC we are enduring a long and nasty inquiry, The Justice Thomas Braidwood Inquiry, into the taser death of a man at Vancouver Airport over a year ago. The RCMP just blew it, plain and simple. Had there been no video recording of what really happened, they would have got away with their usual stonewalling, lying, and making up "evidence". But the video exists, and 4 cops have been sitting on a chair, under oath, denying the evidence and trying to make out that they behaved properly. The blunt truth is, they did not.

I don't know why the RCMP cannot understand the simple truth that if they said, "Yes, we didn't handle this properly and we apologize and we will do our utmost to make sure it never happens again" - why, public respect for them would increase dramatically. But no, they won't do that. The whole thing is sickening. 4 big strong well armed and armoured young men, within SECONDS of entering the scene immediately tasered this poor man and stood around with their fingers up their butts while he lay dying. There is just no way to get around it, they messed up badly. Then they got together and cooked up their story to cover their asses.

That's always been my beef with law enforcement. (And by "law enforcement" I include not just the police but also the district attorneys.)

It's self-accountability. Thanks to the prevalence of cameras more and more we are seeing police get cleared and then a week or two later held accountable. That was the case in the Critical Mass Cycling Event. The officer was filmed shoving a bicyclist. The bicyclist was accused of disorderly conduct. The cop was considered to be acting in complete accord with the law. The tape made it to the internet. The bicyclist was cleared of all charges. The officer was charged with felony assault.

Without the video camera testimony there would have been no case against this officer and there would still be a case against the bicyclist. But here's the kicker.

There were other officers around witnessing the event.

Back when I wrote that my standard for "good cop" was different from some others, that I had a higher bar for police to clear to achieve that title, I specifically wrote that the good cops arrest the bad cops. There were no good cops present at the Critical Mass assault.

It is self-accountability among law enforcement that is what used to make and now breaks the opinion the public holds of law enforcement. And sometimes even videotape isn't enough.

Yet again, we have a twisted definition applied to justify a particular skewed viewpoint which has no basis in reality. This "good cop" invention of CG is something found nowhere else. Its a creation of his own mind to justify his own extreme views.

Quote:

Back when I wrote that my standard for "good cop" was different from some others, that I had a higher bar for police to clear to achieve that title, I specifically wrote that the good cops arrest the bad cops. There were no good cops present at the Critical Mass assault.

According to this premise, a police officer can serve for twenty years, perform well under all conditions, save a few lives along the way, get awards for bravery and enforce the law thousands of times without one negative incident. But if he has not arrested or turned in any "bad cops" that officer is not a "good cop".

People do not like it when CG and I take issue with every little thing each says but this is a perfect example of the stuff that really bothers me. He could say he has a DIFFERENT standard..... he could say his bar of judgement is UNUSUAL .... but no ... instead its a HIGHER BAR. The condenscension is there for all to see. By implication the rest of us have a much lower standard.

It is self serving for the poster to proclaim to the rest of us and he has "a higher bar" as the standard for being a good officer as if it is some badge of honor that elevates him while we roll around in the muck. The idea that an officer has to prove himself/herself to be a "good cop" according to these so called higher standards is absurd.

George Orwell would be proud of what has been done to the basic vocabulary.

Well, I actually pretty much agree with C_G on this one except for the "higher standard" stuff. No one forces anyone to become a police officer or customs officer. These people are all volunteers, they choose to do this sort of work. They get no "break" from me at all. If they can't do it the way it should be done, then they should find another line of work.

I do know, though, that the actual stresses of the job cannot be known ahead of time. No one is perfect, and the constant barrage of crap that the police deal with is bound to affect them. I know I couldn't do it. But then, I didn't volunteer, either.

A police officer should not be held to a "higher standard" at all, the standard should be the same as for every other citizen. The problem is that they are often held to a much lower standard: cya. Us vs them. The military mindset that was encouraged in the RCMP, and the actual discouragement of RCMP officers having social contacts outside the force led inevitably to the sort of abuse we saw with the taser death. I would mention the guy's name, but it's one of those Polish names that I just can't remember how to spell. His name was Robert D.

I certainly agree with C_G that the definition of a "good cop" would include one that one not stand by and do nothing when another police officer misbehaves. That's so obvious that it is remarkable to me that anyone could challenge it. There is, in fact, only person in the entire world that I could imagine doing so.