board77

Or at least the last one started by me, and one I hope will put to rest my days of crazy arguing on the boards... at least about PJ.

It's been some time since I've read the books, and this is rather unacceptable to me. It was highlighted, of course, by the m77t, where my team only got 3 of the 10 books questions... I was close on a couple of the other ones, but that's not really the point. The point is, I've let PJ's films bother me so much I've forgotten how much I enjoyed the books. It became more about arguing about the movies than enjoying Tolkien.

So I want to end my arguments about the films. This is purely for my own personal benefit, but I welcome all discussion and argument. That's what it's all about anyway. But to that end, I intend to go through the movies and analyze them closely. I feel kind of bad that I came up with this idea just as another "go through the movies" thread started. I don't really want to drag that thread off in my own direction, but maybe this thread won't really be at odds with that one.

TP and I started a similar thread back on TORC and met heavy resistance. It was seen as "confrontational" and we were just "looking for a fight." Well, the problem with that thread was that we were focusing on the differences between the books and films and trying to list all of them. What's more important, at least to me now, is not the differences, but the parts that worked or did not work in the films.

I think what I noticed most in this recent and first viewing of the ROTK EE, was that the parts taken right from the book were cool, but just didn't fit into the movie. I want to study this further, and try to come to that place where I can understand the movies as themselves, good or bad parts, and why PJ did certain things, or if maybe he shouldn't... and not look at it simply from "well the book did it that way."

I realize some of you will be saying "well duh, you should have done that to start." Well, that may be the case, but that's another thing I want to look for. Why was FOTR so watchable, and TTT wasn't? I don't think it was simply that it wasn't like the book.

Anyway, my plan is to go through the movies scene by scene, and try to analyze them as much as possible. I will be relating things to the books (which I intend to read through again first), but not in an antagonistic way. I'm sure there will be moments of "Why did he cut this out?" Why did he change this?" and "Why did he add that?" but I hope to at least try to understand it from the film's point of view, rather than from an adaptation point of view.

I think the end result of this thread (which I think will take some time to finish) will be one of two things: I will understand the movies enough that I can watch them and at least enjoy the imagery and cool scenes... Or... I will be finished with the movies for the forseeable future. Either one is fine with me, but I think I'd prefer the first one.

The main question I have for people before I get started is, how should the movies be divided up? Could do it by DVD chapters, but some are quite long, and I might want to take it in smaller chunks... For instance, I really want to just do Theoden's speech right before they charge into battle in ROTK, and then do the actual charge separately... what do people think?

Of course, I welcome input on the concept as well. As I said earlier, I will probably do this for myself, even if there is little interest. I don't want it to devolve into arguments that have all been done. I'm not looking to put down the films, but to understand them. I'm going to try and be as objective as I can (which is most likely no where near as much as is possible), because otherwise, there is little point.

And that should be the end of my purism...

How is someone with ADD supposed to read all of that?

But seriously, I would love to see what you find besides the obvious diffrences (no I'm not going to give any examples). There had been much discussion in my house about how PJ ruined TT.


Good idea, I hope I can keep up

Great post, hal. I think this is a great idea, and I think it will provide a nice counterpoint to fisssh's thread. I look forward to hearing some of your thoughts, and hopefully being stimulated to share some of my own.

TheMary wrote:

How is someone with ADD supposed to read all of that?

I have asked myself that question many times on this board. I have never found an answer, yet somehow I read it all anyway.

That said, I did work my way through that entire post and I look forward to it, Hal. I shall be interested to see what conclusions you reach and what understanding you come to. I've been moving in a more 'purist' direction for a while now, and I've been trying to understand it all as well, how it fits, how it works, the wherefores and whatnot. Should make interesting reading at the very least.

One thing I do know (and will reiterate when we get there), is that Theoden's speech and the Rohirrim shouting "Death!" is unbelievable

Well, halplm my friend, I'm up for this. However you decide to divvy things up will work for me.

I don't know the movies very well, to put it mildly, having only struggled through them each twice and not really all the way through the second time, come to think of it. I keep going to sleep when the grandchildren try to watch them, either that or leaping to my feet and hollering at the TV. Not a very productive way to spend time.

I hated the movies, or most of the movies, so much, that I'm not really able to be very objective. Maybe this thread will teach me to be less........disgusted with the movies?

Is there hope for me?

Well, it will be interesting to see, won't it, vison?

You and Hal both refused the Treatment, which would have been so very simple—a mild sedative, some hypnogogic instructions, a few modest neurological implants, and you would have loooooved the films just as much as the rest of Usssssss. . . .

Seriously, I think this is going to be fun. I'm starting my rewatching this weekend, I hope, and will enjoy following along in this thread and fisssh's and commenting where I think I have anything useful to say.

If anything can reconcile you or Hal or both to the films enough that you can find some pleasure in them, I think that's great for your sakes (and not in any Orwellian way, honestly). And if not, c'est la vie, right?

Hal, I can't wait. Do them however you think best. I think a lot of us think that PJ could have done better but we disagree where and how. Analysing those parts will give us a lot of fun (and, dare I say, argument). I'm glad you liked the Theoden speech and the Rohirrim chant. That was a moment from Tolkien that lifted the hair on the back of my neck.

This is a cool idea but I think it'd be helpful to clarify exactly what the differrence between this thread and fissh's thread is meant to be.

Ooooooh. Count me in as an avid reader and sometime poster.

(Somebody drag Semprini in here!)

halplm wrote:

For instance, I really want to just do Theoden's speech right before they charge into battle in ROTK, and then do the actual charge separately... what do people think?

halplm, I'm so glad you're doing this! I think it will be really good for you. As far as your comment above, I think it might be better to first take scenes as a whole, and then break them up further if you want to.

vison wrote:

I keep going to sleep when the grandchildren try to watch them, either that or leaping to my feet and hollering at the TV. Not a very productive way to spend time.

I hated the movies, or most of the movies, so much, that I'm not really able to be very objective. Maybe this thread will teach me to be less........disgusted with the movies?

vison, you remind me so much of myself with these comments. That's why I'm so grateful for Voronwe's recent rating poll (which I am near completing). It gave me a reason to watch the movies and a purpose for persevering through the excrutiatingly annoying moments. Until then, I hadn't been able to get very far in the ROTK EE.

yovargas wrote:

This is a cool idea but I think it'd be helpful to clarify exactly what the differrence between this thread and fissh's thread is meant to be.

yov, I believe halplm expressed concern about derailing fisssh's thread. And from the past, we know how people are likely to react to halplm's posts, with accusations about how he is trying to ruin discussions for others. So I think it's a great idea that he start a separate thread, to avoid that kind of dynamic (even if the threads should happen to duplicate each other somewhat for content).

I think we have all mellowed, Cerin, at this remove in time (and cyberspace) from those old discussions.

The two threads should be complementary. I don't think there would be all that much chance of flames bursting out if Hal posted in fissh's thread, but there's probably some advantage in two separate discussions so Hal and others less fond of the films can say their say without worrying about upsetting people. People coming in here know what they might find.

Prim wrote:

I think we have all mellowed, Cerin, at this remove in time (and cyberspace) from those old discussions.

Actually, Prim, I was referring to comments I've seen in discussions here.

Well, I still think we've mellowed.

Note that I didn't say we are mellow.

I think people make more of an effort to be polite here.

I think there has been some mellowing... people are somewhat removed from the heady joy of seeing the films for the first time... even the ardent revisionists have admitted to greatly disliking some scenes.

I think we've moved beyond the "attack and defend" aspects of the argument, and that's why I hope this thread will be more openminded and "objectively critical" rather than emmotionally invested.

I'm not sure the best way to get started, though. I definitely want to read the relevant parts of the book first because it's been so long, but most of the relevant parts for the prologue are halfway through FOTR, not to mention in the Silmarillion...

Maybe I'll read through the CoE, and then go for the first half of PJ's FOTR. It all depends on how much time I can devote to the reading this week.

The "heady joy", for me, lasted until Merry and Pippin let teh big firework off. I knew then what I was in for.

I stuck it out, since the films were so pretty to look at. How right he got the look, most of the time!

Even a ranting/raving/foaming-at-the-mouth "purist" such as I am found plenty to like in the movies, though. And as we go through them, scene by scene, I'm sure I'll remember what it was I liked.

Sorry, not trying to be difficult, but I'm still not getting how this is meant to be different from fish's thread. Is it just that this thread is focused more on criticism? From reading the initial post I don't think that's it but I don't get what else it could be...

I haven't followed fissh's thread, but I think I'm wanting to focus more on analysis, rather than discussions of likes and dislikes.

Perhaps in the end there will be no difference, and I'll be the only one left in this thread. I stated it up front, I don't mean to compete with that thread, but I have to do this for myself.

Isn't it great we're on a board that doesn't eliminate perceived redundant threads?

That was a pain, wasn't it?

Good thing there's a rule in the charter that forbids doing that here. . . .

Anyway, I don't see how it could be considered redundant. This is your thread, started for your reasons. Even if you end up doing most of the posting, it's still different from fisssh's thread because it's yours.