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Latest PR blunder from Wal Mart- update 1/14/6

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Onizuka Eikichi
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Posted: Wed 11 Jan , 2006 6:05 pm
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Ara-anna wrote:
Maybe since Wal-mart can't produce good advertising they have just gone with bad, figuring bad advertising is better than none.
That's possible. But then, no one produces "good" advertising anymore. Not just Wal-Mart.

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yovargas
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Powerpuff Girl: A DVD that was incorrectly linked to MLK videos by Wal-mart
Planet of the Apes: A DVD that was incorrectly linked to MLK videos by Wal-mart


This is indeed this.


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sauronsfinger
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Lets see now
when I change the story around and mess with it, the tone of the story is different.

The kids I taught in high school would hve a single word reaction to that..

DUH.

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yovargas
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If you change one DVD that was incorrectly linked to MLK videos by Wal-mart for another DVD that was incorrectly linked to MLK videos by Wal-mart, the tone changes despite both of them being DVDs that were incorrectly linked to MLK videos by Wal-mart. Why?


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Wolfgangbos
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Apartment buildings are not owned by the tenants. The U.S. is owned by its citizenry.

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yovargas
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Damn fine point, Wolfgang.


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sauronsfinger
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yovargas
I am shocked beyond belief that you would respons so postively to it.... :D

when I brought it up the idea was

A person can live in a nation where they are unhappy with much that goes on there especially the government, its programs, its policies, its taxes, and try as they might, their ideas for change are rejected time after time by over 99% of the people. But despite their unhappiness they stay when they could move elsewhere.

A person can live in an apartment building where they are unhappy with much that goes on there expecially the management, its programs, its policies, its financial fees, and try as they might, their ideas for change are rejecfted time after time by over 99% of the other people there. But despite their unhappiness they stay when they could move elsewhere.

But because the people do not own the building, you love the point.

Perhaps some of you may remember the words of a man named Abraham Lincoln referred to the USA as " house divided against itself"?

He compared the USA to a house.

And where did he get the idea?

Check this out if you dare...
Quote:
At 8 p.m. Lincoln delivered this address to his Republican colleagues in the Hall of Representatives. The title comes a sentence from the speech's introduction, "A house divided against itself cannot stand," which paraphrases a statement by Jesus in the New Testament.
So lets see now ... that puts Abraham Lincoln, Jesus Christ and myself together in the use of the comparison. I find that very good company.

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yovargas
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I can't know for certain, not knowing the full context, but I'm pretty sure Lincoln didn't mean that people should simply go along with the majority. Cuz if that was what he meant, I'd call him an idiot. And I don't wanna call Lincoln an idiot.


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sauronsfinger
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yovargas
read it again please

Lincoln compared the USA to a house, a place people live in.... and where did he get the idea? From Jesus Christ.

I compared the USA to an apartment building, a place people live in.

I will accept that company and feel safe and secure in my comparison.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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yovargas
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That's fine, but since you quoted it immediately after your "if you're unhappy, leave" bit, I take it to mean that you think Lincoln agrees with you? That Lincoln meant that if your minority opinions will cause the house to fall? Or did you just want to insert random Lincoln quotes unrelated to the point that post was making?


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sauronsfinger
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What I am saying is this yovargas.

The tradition of comparing the structure in which you live to the nation in which you live did not start with myself yesterday. It goes back to at least Abraham Lincoln and he got it from Jesus Christ.

Its a good and fair comparison and I am in very good company in using it here on B77.

Lincoln died in 1865 - on Good Friday to be exact. It would be difficult for him to either agree or disagree with me regarding anything I write on this board. Jesus Christ, on the other hand, may find a way to do so. But lets allow him chime in on that should he sign up here. ;)

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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Lincoln never gave a long speech about how people who use abstractions and analogies don't "live in the real world". He's not in the company of anyone who ever did.


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sauronsfinger
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Quite to the contrary my friend. Abraham Lincoln was about as real world as you could get. When an entire series of Do Nothing presidents failed to act while the nation was split over the idea of slavery, Lincoln took real world action. His feet were firmly grounded in the real world. And his use of comparing a structure in which people live to the living in the USA was absolutely inspriing and the mark of genius. No wonder he is rated as one of the truly GREAT presidents of all time by those in the know.

It was probably the comparison that tipped the scales in his favor.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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So which Lincoln speech derided the use of analogies and metaphors?


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sauronsfinger
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When I introduce a speech, I give it to you. When you refer to the possible speeches of Lincoln, its up to you to find them. As I explained to your lovely wife this morning, I have nothing against a good metaphor or comparison provided it is appropriate and part of a discussion about things that really are. Lincoln seemed to understand that also from his use of a comparison that we now are discussing.

Just for you here is the speech by Lincoln that I referred to and the Biblical quote from Jesus which inspired both Lincoln and thus yours truly.

A house divided against itself cannot stand
This term's origin comes from the bible

(
Quote:
Matthew 12:25). 'And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand'.
and the Lincoln speech
Quote:
Springfield, Illinois, June 16, 1858

MR. PRESIDENT AND GENTLEMEN OF THE CONVENTION:
If we could first know where we are, and whither we are tending, we could better judge what to do, and how to do it. We are now far into the fifth year since a policy was initiated with the avowed object, and confident promise, of putting an end to slavery agitation. Under the operation of that policy, that agitation has not only not ceased, but has constantly augmented. In my opinion, it will not cease, until a crisis shall have been reached and passed. "A house divided against itself cannot stand." I believe this government cannot endure permanently half slave and half free. I do not expect the Union to be dissolved -- I do not expect the house to fall -- but I do expect it will cease to be divided. It will become all one thing, or all the other. Either the opponents of slavery will arrest the further spread of it, and place it where the public mind shall rest in the belief that it is in the course of ultimate extinction; or its advocates will push it forward, till it shall become alike lawful in all the States, old as well as new -- North as well as South.

Have we no tendency to the latter condition?

Let any one who doubts, carefully contemplate that now almost complete legal combination -- piece of machinery, so to speak -- compounded of the Nebraska doctrine, and the Dred Scott decision. Let him consider not only what work the machinery is adapted to do, and how well adapted; but also, let him study the history of its construction, and trace, if he can, or rather fail, if he can, to trace the evidences of design, and concert of action, among its chief architects, from the beginning.

The new year of 1854 found slavery excluded from more than half the States by State Constitutions, and from most of the national territory by Congressional prohibition. Four days later, commenced the struggle which ended in repealing that Congressional prohibition. This opened all the national territory to slavery, and was the first point gained.

But, so far, Congress only had acted; and an indorsement by the people, real or apparent, was indispensable, to save the point already gained, and give chance for more.

This necessity had not been overlooked; but had been provided for, as well as might be, in the notable argument of "squatter sovereignty," otherwise called "sacred right of self-government," which latter phrase, though expressive of the only rightful basis of any government, was so perverted in this attempted use of it as to amount to just this: That if any one man choose to enslave another, no third man shall be allowed to object. That argument was incorporated into the Nebraska bill itself, in the language which follows: "It being the true intent and meaning of this act not to legislate slavery into any Territory or State, nor to exclude it therefrom; but to leave the people thereof perfectly free to form and regulate their domestic institutions in their own way, subject only to the Constitution of the United States." Then opened the roar of loose declamation in favor of "Squatter Sovereignty," and "sacred right of self-government." "But," said opposition members, "let us amend the bill so as to expressly declare that the people of the Territory may exclude slavery." "Not we," said the friends of the measure; and down they voted the amendment.

While the Nebraska bill was passing through Congress, a law case involving the question of a negro's freedom, by reason of his owner having voluntarily taken him first into a free State and then into a Territory covered by the Congressional prohibition, and held him as a slave for a long time in each, was passing through the U. S. Circuit Court for the District of Missouri; and both Nebraska bill and law suit were brought to a decision in the same month of May, 1854. The negro's name was "Dred Scott," which name now designates the decision finally made in the case. Before the then next Presidential election, the law case came to, and was argued in, the Supreme Court of the United States; but the decision of it was deferred until after the election. Still, before the election, Senator Trumbull, on the floor of the Senate, requested the leading advocate of the Nebraska bill to state his opinion whether the people of a Territory can constitutionally exclude slavery from their limits; and the latter answers: "That is a question for the Supreme Court."

The election came. Mr. Buchanan was elected, and the indorsement, such as it was, secured. That was the second point gained. The indorsement, however, fell short of a clear popular majority by nearly four hundred thousand votes, and so, perhaps, was not overwhelmingly reliable and satisfactory. The outgoing President, in his last annual message, as impressively as possible echoed back upon the people the weight and authority of the endorsement. The Supreme Court met again; did not announce their decision, but ordered a re-argument. The Presidential inauguration came, and still no decision of the court; but the incoming President in his inaugural address, fervently exhorted the people to abide by the forthcoming decision, whatever it might be. Then, in a few days, came the decision.

The reputed author of the Nebraska bill finds an early occasion to make a speech at this capital indorsing the Dred Scott decision, and vehemently denouncing all opposition to it. The new President, too, seizes the early occasion of the Silliman letter to indorse and strongly construe that decision, and to express his astonishment that any different view had ever been entertained!

At length a squabble springs up between the President and the author of the Nebraska bill, on the mere question of fact, whether the Lecompton Constitution was or was not, in any just sense, made by the people of Kansas; and in that quarrel the latter declares that all he wants is a fair vote for the people, and that he cares not whether slavery be voted down or voted up. I do not understand his declaration that he cares not whether slavery be voted down or voted up, to be intended by him other than as an apt definition of the policy he would impress upon the public mind -- the principle for which he declares he has suffered so much, and is ready to suffer to the end. And well may he cling to that principle. If he has any parental feeling, well may he cling to it. That principle is the only shred left of his original Nebraska doctrine. Under the Dred Scott decision "squatter sovereignty" squatted out of existence, tumbled down like temporary scaffolding -- like the mould at the foundry served through one blast and fell back into loose sand -- helped to carry an election, and then was kicked to the winds. His late joint struggle with the Republicans, against the Lecompton Constitution, involves nothing of the original Nebraska doctrine. That struggle was made on a point -- the right of a people to make their own constitution -- upon which he and the Republicans have never differed.

The several points of the Dred Scott decision, in connection, with Senator Douglas's "care not" policy, constitute the piece of machinery, in its present state of advancement. This was the third point gained. The working points of that machinery are:

First, That no negro slave, imported as such from Africa, and no descendant of such slave, can ever be a citizen of any State, in the sense of that term as used in the Constitution of the United States. This point is made in order to deprive the negro, in every possible event, of the benefit of that provision of the United States Constitution, which declares that "The citizens of each State, shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of citizens in the several States."

Secondly, That "subject to the Constitution of the United States," neither Congress nor a Territorial Legislature can exclude slavery from any United States territory. This point is made in order that individual men may fill up the Territories with slaves, without danger of losing them as property, and thus to enhance the chances of permanency to the institution through all the future.

Thirdly, That whether the holding a negro in actual slavery in a free State, makes him free, as against the holder, the United States courts will not decide, but will leave to be decided by the courts of any slave State the negro may be forced into by the master. This point is made, not to be pressed immediately; but, if acquiesced in for awhile, and apparently indorsed by the people at an election, then to sustain the logical conclusion that what Dred Scott's master might lawfully do with Dred Scott, in the free State of Illinois, every other master may lawfully do with any other one, or one thousand slaves, in Illinois, or in any other free State.

Auxiliary to all this, and working hand in hand with it, the Nebraska doctrine, or what is left of it, is to educate and mould public opinion, at least Northern public opinion, not to care whether slavery is voted down or voted up. This shows exactly where we now are; and partially, also, whither we are tending.

It will throw additional light on the latter, to go back, and run the mind over the string of historical facts already stated. Several things will now appear less dark and mysterious than they did when they were transpiring. The people were to be left "perfectly free," "subject only to the Constitution." What the Constitution had to do with it, outsiders could not then see. Plainly enough now, it was an exactly fitted niche, for the Dred Scott decision to afterward come in, and declare the perfect freedom of the people to be just no freedom at all. Why was the amendment, expressly declaring the right of the people, voted down? Plainly enough now: the adoption of it would have spoiled the niche for the Dred Scott decision. Why was the court decision held up? Why even a Senator's individual opinion withheld, till after the Presidential election? Plainly enough now: the speaking out then would have damaged the perfectly free argument upon which the election was to be carried. Why the outgoing President's felicitation on the indorsement? Why the delay of a reargument? Why the incoming President's advance exhortation in favor of the decision? These things look like the cautious patting and petting of a spirited horse preparatory to mounting him, when it is dreaded that he may give the rider a fall. And why the hasty after-indorsement of the decision by the President and others?

We cannot absolutely know that all these exact adaptations are the result of preconcert. But when we see a lot of framed timbers, different portions of which we know have been gotten out at different times and places and by different workmen -- Stephen, Franklin, Roger and James, for instance -- and when we see these timbers joined together, and see they exactly make the frame of a house or a mill, all the tenons and mortices exactly fitting, and all the lengths and proportions of the different pieces exactly adapted to their respective places, and not a piece too many or too few -- not omitting even scaffolding -- or, if a single piece be lacking, we see the place in the frame exactly fitted and prepared yet to bring such a piece in -- in such a case, we find it impossible not to believe that Stephen and Franklin and Roger and James all understood one another from the beginning, and all worked upon a common plan or draft drawn up before the first blow was struck.

It should not be overlooked that, by the Nebraska bill, the people of a State as well as Territory, were to be left "perfectly free," "subject only to the Constitution." Why mention a State? They were legislating for Territories, and not for or about States. Certainly the people of a State are and ought to be subject to the Constitution of the United States; but why is mention of this lugged into this merely Territorial law? Why are the people of a Territory and the people of a State therein lumped together, and their relation to the Constitution therein treated as being precisely the same? While the opinion of the court, by Chief Justice Taney, in the Dred Scott case, and the separate opinions of all the concurring Judges, expressly declare that the Constitution of the United States neither permits Congress nor a Territorial Legislature to exclude slavery from any United States Territory, they all omit to declare whether or not the same Constitution permits a State, or the people of a State, to exclude it. Possibly, this is a mere omission; but who can be quite sure, if McLean or Curtis had sought to get into the opinion a declaration of unlimited power in the people of a State to exclude slavery from their limits, just as Chase and Mace sought to get such declaration, in behalf of the people of a Territory, into the Nebraska bill; -- I ask, who can be quite sure that it would not have been voted down in the one case as it had been in the other? The nearest approach to the point of declaring the power of a State over slavery, is made by Judge Nelson. He approaches it more than once, using the precise idea, and almost the language, too, of the Nebraska act. On one occasion, his exact language is, "except in cases where the power is restrained by the Constitution of the United States, the law of the State is supreme over the subject of slavery within its jurisdiction." In what cases the power of the States is so restrained by the United States Constitution, is left an open question, precisely as the same question, as to the restraint on the power of the Territories, was left open in the Nebraska act. Put this and that together, and we have another nice little niche, which we may, ere long, see filled with another Supreme Court decision, declaring that the Constitution of the United States does not permit a State to exclude slavery from its limits. And this may especially be expected if the doctrine of "care not whether slavery be voted down or voted up," shall gain upon the public mind sufficiently to give promise that such a decision can be maintained when made.

Such a decision is all that slavery now lacks of being alike lawful in all the States. Welcome, or unwelcome, such decision is probably coming, and will soon be upon us, unless the power of the present political dynasty shall be met and overthrown. We shall lie down pleasantly dreaming that the people of Missouri are on the verge of making their State free, and we shall awake to the reality instead, that the Supreme Court has made Illinois a slave State. To meet and overthrow the power of that dynasty, is the work now before all those who would prevent that consummation. That is what we have to do. How can we best do it?

There are those who denounce us openly to their own friends, and yet whisper us softly, that Senator Douglas is the aptest instrument there is with which to effect that object. They wish us to infer all, from the fact that he now has a little quarrel with the present head of the dynasty; and that he has regularly voted with us on a single point, upon which he and we have never differed. They remind us that he is a great man, and that the largest of us are very small ones. Let this be granted. But "a living dog is better than a dead lion." Judge Douglas, if not a dead lion, for this work, is at least a caged and toothless one. How can he oppose the advances of slavery? He don't care anything about it. His avowed mission is impressing the "public heart" to care nothing about it. A leading Douglas democratic newspaper thinks Douglas's superior talent will be needed to resist the revival of the African slave trade. Does Douglas believe an effort to revive that trade is approaching? He has not said so. Does he really think so? But if it is, how can he resist it? For years he has labored to prove it a sacred right of white men to take negro slaves into the new Territories. Can he possibly show that it is less a sacred right to buy them where they can be bought cheapest? And unquestionably they can be bought cheaper in Africa than in Virginia. He has done all in his power to reduce the whole question of slavery to one of a mere right of property; and as such, how can he oppose the foreign slave trade -- how can he refuse that trade in that "property" shall be "perfectly free" -- unless he does it as a protection to the home production? And as the home producers will probably not ask the protection, he will be wholly without a ground of opposition.

Senator Douglas holds, we know, that a man may rightfully be wiser to-day than he was yesterday -- that he may rightfully change when he finds himself wrong. But can we, for that reason, run ahead, and infer that he will make any particular change, of which he, himself, has given no intimation? Can we safely base our action upon any such vague inference? Now, as ever, I wish not to misrepresent Judge Douglas's position, question his motives, or do aught that can be personally offensive to him. Whenever, if ever, he and we can come together on principle so that our cause may have assistance from his great ability, I hope to have interposed no adventitious obstacle. But clearly, he is not now with us -- he does not pretend to be -- he does not promise ever to be.

Our cause, then, must be intrusted to, and conducted by, its own undoubted friends -- those whose hands are free, whose hearts are in the work -- who do care for the result. Two years ago the Republicans of the nation mustered over thirteen hundred thousand strong. We did this under the single impulse of resistance to a common danger, with every external circumstance against us. Of strange, discordant, and even hostile elements, we gathered from the four winds, and formed and fought the battle through, under the constant hot fire of a disciplined, proud and pampered enemy. Did we brave all then, to falter now? --now, when that same enemy is wavering, dissevered and belligerent? The result is not doubtful. We shall not fail -- if we stand firm, we shall not fail. Wise counsels may accelerate, or mistakes delay it, but, sooner or later, the victory is sure to come.
You see CG, when I claim that something exists to support my position I have no trouble naming it and producing it for all to see.

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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sauronsfinger wrote:
You see CG, when I claim that something exists to support my position I have no trouble naming it and producing it for all to see.
You provided a speech in which he used analogy, metaphor, etc., exists. That's not my question.

You claim to be in his company. Where is the speech he gave deriding the use of analogy, metaphor, etc?

As you explained to me, you are in the real world.


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sauronsfinger
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CG
settle down because I have almost no idea what you are talking about.

I am not an expert on the speeches of Lincoln but I would refer you to Carl Sandburg who was. Perhaps his work may help you.

I NEVER claimed that Lincoln made speeches about deriding metaphors or anything else other than what I posted about his comparison of a house to a nation --- just as I did.

Anything else and you are on your own.

I know it is extremely difficult for you to find evidence which you claim supports you. Thats okay and you will develop those skills over time as you gain in confidence and skill and training.

But do not ask me to find speeches that I never claimed were made in the first place. Thats just absurd to the nth degree.

Many things made Lincoln a realist. Quit focusing on a tiny sliver of life.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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Ara-anna
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Posted: Wed 11 Jan , 2006 11:06 pm
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Hey your not the only one confused.

I have no idea what C_G is asking either.

SF said Lincoln said 'House divided' It was asked where that speech was. SF provided the speech. Then it was said no thats not it, and something was asked but :scratch: I am not sure what.

But after reading the speech I can see why Libertarians dislike him so much. I mean just this
Quote:
This necessity had not been overlooked; but had been provided for, as well as might be, in the notable argument of "squatter sovereignty," otherwise called "sacred right of self-government," which latter phrase, though expressive of the only rightful basis of any government, was so perverted in this attempted use of it as to amount to just this: That if any one man choose to enslave another, no third man shall be allowed to object
has to put Libertarians panties in a twist.

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Onizuka Eikichi
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Ara-anna wrote:

But after reading the speech I can see why Libertarians dislike him so much. I mean just this
Quote:
This necessity had not been overlooked; but had been provided for, as well as might be, in the notable argument of "squatter sovereignty," otherwise called "sacred right of self-government," which latter phrase, though expressive of the only rightful basis of any government, was so perverted in this attempted use of it as to amount to just this: That if any one man choose to enslave another, no third man shall be allowed to object
has to put Libertarians panties in a twist.
Huh? I don't get it.

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sauronsfinger
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Onizuka
I suspect you are not suppose to

just as Ara-anna does not get CG's question about the speeches and i do not get what he is saying either because I never said Lincoln made speeches that CG claims he did, if that is what he is saying...

I suspects its Ara-anna's way of saying "none of this makes sense anymore" ....

but I could be wrong ;)

On second look. there is a section where Lincoln seems to be taking to task those who would pervert the true purpose and idea of government for their own twisted purposes ..... something to think about.

_________________

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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