board77

halplm wrote:

terrorism is never logical

That is simply not true. It may not seem logical to you, but every terrorist is not an irrational fanatic. I'm going to take a professor's definition of terrorism here--"terrorism is the systematic, unpredictible use of violence against civilians as a means to intimidate or coerce societies or governments." So why, then, would the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki not be considered terrorism? Systematic, check. Unpredictible, check. Violence, check. Against civilians, check. Intended to intimidate or coerce a government, check. And of course, there is debate about whether or not those bombings were legitimate--but most people don't see them as illogical, even if the choice may not have been the best. The US had an agenda and we used this method to achieve that agenda. It involved killing mass amounts of civilians. Islamic (and all) terrorists have an agenda and they use another method to achieve that agenda that involves killing civilians. What I'm saying is that once you fail to understand that someone else's decision may be rational in context, even if that action is terrible, you can lose the potential to react rationally in kind.

Quote:

Basically, what you're saying is that we should give the terrorist everything they want... and they'll stop being terrorists.

Of course not, you're extrapolating something from my post that was never there to begin with. I never once said that we should "give the terrorists everything they want." I said that we need to understand why people are terrorists to begin with. This does not mean giving them everything they want, or even anything they want. It means a greater understanding of their actions and motivations, knowledge that can only serve to give us more of an advantage.

Quote:

Who are they fighting for freedom from? We're not oppressing them.

We don't see it as oppression. But they do. Most Islamic terrorists are fightning because they see Western presence in their region as a threat to their core identity.

Alatar wrote:

This is slightly frightening.

You bet it is. Because it doesn't much matter if halplm believes this nonsense, but it sure as hell matters when his government spouts it. Whether the BA "believes" it or not? I doubt it.

But they know a good thing when they see it.

yovargas wrote:

halplm wrote:

Because they think that people should believe exactly as they do. They do not even WANT freedom.

Is that the only reason? Many have argued that the reasons are much more complicated:

V-ma, on HoF, wrote:

hal, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have been killed or wounded in the past 4 plus years; millions have been driven from their homes. Thousands of civilians have been killed directly by U.S troops, and other thousands have been wrongfully incarcerated, and in many cases terribly abused. Civilians have been out and out murdered by U.S. troops. And that is just in Iraq. That isn't even getting into the valid complaints that Arabs and other Muslims have had for many years. Have you ever been to a Palestinian refugee camp? Me neither, but I know they are not pleasant places. I'm not saying that any of this justifies terrorism, but this is a much more complicated situation then you seem to realize.

Worth pondering, no?

Not particularly, no. As that does not explain the ideology that drives them to blow themselves up to promote fear. It is a (weak at best) method of placing the blame for their hatred of us on us, when it is in fact based on lies they have been told about us.

Alatar wrote:

This is slightly frightening.

And what exactly are you implying?

Elsha wrote:

Quote:

Who are they fighting for freedom from? We're not oppressing them.

We don't see it as oppression. But they do. Most Islamic terrorists are fightning because they see Western presence in their region as a threat to their core identity.

Ah, but it's actually that they see a western presence anywhere, as a threat to them.
Why? Becuase we tell people they can believe what they want to believe. Meanwhile, they're trying to convince the people following them that you have to believe exactly what they say. They have power, and they want to keep power. The Freedom that Western civilisation offers to ordinary citizens destroys the power they have.

If they can't convince their followers that we are evil, they lose their power.


I seem to have been sucked into this argument again... and I really don't know why I feel the need to try and express any of this.

I would like to know just how these "terrorists" are going to wipe the US off the face of the Earth. Explain it, s'il vous plait.

Every year in the US there are 40 to 50 thousand people killed in traffic accidents. No one is suggesting, not even for one second, that people in the US should stop driving cars. The death toll is seen as "acceptable", a cost of "doing business", of the "American way of life".

On September 11, 2001, 3,000 people --- not all Americans, either --- were killed and the USA seems to have lost its collective mind.

Remember how we've been told that "the USA won the Cold War" by outspending the USSR? Well, jeez, guyz, look at what kind of spending that one attack has precipitated!!! How many hundreds of billions of dollars? And where has it been spent? In the USA, "making things safer"? Like, REALLY doing something constructive about internal security?

No, the money has been spent on a useless, illegal and immoral invasion of a sovereign nation that represented no threat to the USA, but happens to sit on a vast oil reserve. The USA, through its ties to the Saudi royal family, is pretty secure of the Saudi reserves: the "national oil company" of Saudi Arabia is really an American/Saudi/British conglomerate and no one is likely to disturb its extremely profitable operations. There is that unpleasant fact that all the 9/11 terrorists were Saudi, showing that not all Saudis are happy with the status quo, but still, there have been no more attacks, so things there have been clamped down pretty well.

Despite the loud and continual denial by the USA, the fact is that the USA did train the Afghans to fight the Russians, and those guys are now the Taliban. The USA is paying now for decades of interference in the affairs of other nations.

As someone else asked, if the US pulled out of Iraq, who will have won what?

eta: halplm, I can't believe you believe that stuff. It's absurd! Talk about believing lies. I think you should learn to think for yourself, and stop swallowing the bullshit emanating from the BA.

Nothing I have said comes from teh Bush administration.

What everyone fails to mention is that these terrorists are using religion as a basis for their justification. It's not us oppressing anyone. It's not our presense making them feel thier identity is threatened... except in the case where there identity involves their ability to murder and oppress whoever they like.

What I can't believe is that all you people arguing with me believe any of what you say! They want us dead, because they think that will make them rich and powerful in the afterlife. They will stop at nothing in their attempts to kill us, and recruit more people to kill us.

We threaten them because we threaten to expose that their rationale is barbaric and evil.

They want to kill us because we say women and men are equal.

They want to kill us because we say you should be allowed to believe any religion.

They want to kill us because we say you have a right to a trial, and can't just be tortured and executed at a given leader's whim.

They want to kill us because we say your sexual orientation shouldn't result in a death sentence.

They want to kill us because if they don't want to kill us, they and their beliefs mean nothing.

So yeah, I find it frightening that you all think it's our fault they hate us...

halplm wrote:

Nothing I have said comes from teh Bush administration.

What everyone fails to mention is that these terrorists are using religion as a basis for their justification. It's not us oppressing anyone. It's not our presense making them feel thier identity is threatened... except in the case where there identity involves their ability to murder and oppress whoever they like.

What I can't believe is that all you people arguing with me believe any of what you say! They want us dead, because they think that will make them rich and powerful in the afterlife. They will stop at nothing in their attempts to kill us, and recruit more people to kill us.

We threaten them because we threaten to expose that their rationale is barbaric and evil.

They want to kill us because we say women and men are equal.

They want to kill us because we say you should be allowed to believe any religion.

They want to kill us because we say you have a right to a trial, and can't just be tortured and executed at a given leader's whim.

They want to kill us because we say your sexual orientation shouldn't result in a death sentence.

They want to kill us because if they don't want to kill us, they and their beliefs mean nothing.

So yeah, I find it frightening that you all think it's our fault they hate us...

Sorry, hal, but what you just posted has NO basis in facts whatsoever. We are over to provide peacekeeping forces to Afghanistan, and our forces in Iraq are there to "promote the creation of a stable democratic Iraqi government."

halplm, for the luvva pete.

My god.

There really are people who believe this stuff.

I've heard about it, but I never actually believed it before.

Who are "they"?

actually, what I listed was facts, I don't know what you're referring to.

vison wrote:

halplm, for the luvva pete.

My god.

There really are people who believe this stuff.

I've heard about it, but I never actually believed it before.

Who are "they"?

Islamic terror groups.

By the way, I don't actually appreciate the mocking tone... but I'm used to it, so I guess it's ok...

Hal -

I for one am not mocking you, but you are bringing up hysterical and non rational things into this thread which you want us to address rationally and with seriousness.

You are trying to justify the war with Iraq with a far different war that is against terrorists of all sorts at large. WE gave them the common banner to unite under, it did not exist before we invaded Iraq and attempted to force something onto the area that frankly will not work. Why will it not work? To be blunt, Iraq has far too many other even more deeply rooted issues than having had Saddam as a despot. All we did was remove the despotic glue and let all of the rest of it come to a simmering boil. Did we go into Iraq offering to rebuild schools, hospitals, infrastructure, or stabilize their economy, give the Iraqis a say in the ownership of the infrastructure? NO. Did we try and placate factions that did not hold "American" interests at heart? NO. Is it OUR country or THEIR country? The so called "AID" that we have been pouring into Iraq is all tied to the hands of American corporations. Private funds if you will. So, are you so naive as to believe that all of this "AID" will go directly to benefit the Iraqi people themselves?

That is like asking the prisoners to grow gardens when the wardens hold all of the gardening tools and the seeds. Be a good prisoner, and we will dole some amount of something to you.

In the meantime, the true terrorists are only gaining fodder every day while we keep at this totally insane and unwinnable position that the US administration has staked itself to in that we have to pursue "enemies" with no compromise even being on the table.

Hal, I guess you are FAR too young to remember the Cold War or Vietnam and the fall of Cambodia, George Bush Jr. has no such excuse.

It's not one or the other. Religious fanatics exist who just wanna kill us: true. (These have been around for ages.) Ordaniry people exist who fight us because they want us out of their lands: true. (There seem to be a bunch more of these now.) Combinations of the two also exist. And probably other reasons exist too. It's more complicated then "they're a bunch of religious nutballs".

I AM NOT TRYING TO JUSTIFY THE WAR IN IRAQ.

halplm wrote:

me wrote:

V-ma, on HoF, wrote:

hal, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have been killed or wounded in the past 4 plus years; millions have been driven from their homes. Thousands of civilians have been killed directly by U.S troops, and other thousands have been wrongfully incarcerated, and in many cases terribly abused. Civilians have been out and out murdered by U.S. troops. And that is just in Iraq. That isn't even getting into the valid complaints that Arabs and other Muslims have had for many years. Have you ever been to a Palestinian refugee camp? Me neither, but I know they are not pleasant places. I'm not saying that any of this justifies terrorism, but this is a much more complicated situation then you seem to realize.

Worth pondering, no?

Not particularly, no.

PS - Serious question: How would you react if any other country did any of that to your country? Seriously, just try and ponder that and honestly answer that question.

halplm wrote:

I AM NOT TRYING TO JUSTIFY THE WAR IN IRAQ.

What are you trying to point out? That there are terrorists abroad? That terrorists will attack innocents? Have you lived under a rock? This has been going on for centuries, literally. Do you KNOW what started WW I?

King George III regarded the revolting colonists as "insurgents". I don't know if the word "terrorist" was in common usage then, probably not.

I haven’t been able to fully figure out why the terrorists attacked us myself, either. They are setting out to unite the Islamic world under a single theocratic Taliban-style regime. That can be achieved without killing Americans.

As far as I can tell, their purpose is probably mostly symbolic. In his Declaration of War, Bin Laden identifies the ‘occupation’ of Saudi Arabia as his major problem with the west. Most likely, he wants to send a clear message to the ‘apostate’ governments of the Middle East that he is strong enough to attack their allies and backers in the west in their own countries.

At the same time, maybe he’s trying to force a U.S. withdrawal from Arabia. The U.S. pulled out of Somalia with the loss of a single helicopter, and one terrorist bombing was enough to (apparently) force a withdrawal from Lebanon. It’s possible he got the impression that the U.S is a paper tiger from those incidents.

I have had it clearly explained to me exactly how the war in Iraq is or has made it safer for me. I felt pretty safe prior to 9-11, and aside from shock that my city's skyline has forever changed in the blink of an eye, I still felt pretty safe after 9-11. I did not take a lot of trips into the city, but I was in college and had better things to do. I work in the city pretty damn often now, and I've been there for the subway strike and various alert raisings; I still do not feel any safer because of Iraq. How exactly does Iraq equal a rise in my feelings of safety? All I think of when I see that written or hear it said is that exchange in the Simpsons between Homer and Lisa and the rock that keeps tigers away. Is it working? I do not see any tigers, so it must be because of the rock!

I think a lot of terrorists do want to kill us. I think the reasons are deeper than just our freedoms. Our foreboding presense in the Middle East both today and prior to 9-11, and our blind allegiance to Israel (whom the arabs, particularly the terrorists seem to hate more than us by ten-fold) are logical reasons than just "they hate our freedom".

Lord_Morningstar wrote:

I haven’t been able to fully figure out why the terrorists attacked us myself, either. They are setting out to unite the Islamic world under a single theocratic Taliban-style regime. That can be achieved without killing Americans.

As far as I can tell, their purpose is probably mostly symbolic. In his Declaration of War, Bin Laden identifies the ‘occupation’ of Saudi Arabia as his major problem with the west. Most likely, he wants to send a clear message to the ‘apostate’ governments of the Middle East that he is strong enough to attack their allies and backers in the west in their own countries.

At the same time, maybe he’s trying to force a U.S. withdrawal from Arabia. The U.S. pulled out of Somalia with the loss of a single helicopter, and one terrorist bombing was enough to (apparently) force a withdrawal from Lebanon. It’s possible he got the impression that the U.S is a paper tiger from those incidents.

And, then you are subscribing to the fiction that Osama is some sort of uniting factor. Well, his NAME is, but that is about as far as it goes in reality. Most of the attacks being carried out in Iraq are by groups with all too less esoteric gains - they are power struggles, pure and simple. AGainst what common enemy does not even matter at this point since they ALL can blame it on the US and thus get away with a sort of "home pride movement against the hated intruder" justification, no matter that this is not the real motivation at all. I think the same can even be said for those attacks that are carried out in the overall "Palestinian" regions. Finding a common cause to unite under in name only is a very old and particularly stupid assumption on the part of those attacked. America has fallen for this very old ruse hook, line, and sinker. And, thus, the attackers, whoever they are, gain their power.

The Islamist movement is certainly not united behind UBL, nor is every Iraqi insurgent an Islamist. I was simply considering why Islamists would want to attack the U.S. in the first place (either on 9/11 ect., or why they would travel to Iraq from other countries to join in the fighting).

Lord_Morningstar wrote:

The Islamist movement is certainly not united behind UBL, nor is every Iraqi insurgent an Islamist. I was simply considering why Islamists would want to attack the U.S. in the first place (either on 9/11 ect., or why they would travel to Iraq from other countries to join in the fighting).

I think it is a rather simple observation to make that LOTS of relatively sort of NON Bin Laden affiliated groups now shield themselves under his name for the sheer terror and power that it is perceived to have. Which makes all of the arguments about policies in general about the Mideast and specific problems all tend to get blurred together into one big sticky mess. Exactly what the West should have been smart enough to avoid in the first place....