board77

Noticed that Rush Limbaugh no longer calls our economic crisis "The Clinton Recession". Now its "The Obama Recession".

You wonder what happened to those eight years between those two Presidents

Feredir wrote:

C_G, you seem surprised. Doesn't matter what label you put on them, they are all politicians. He's no different than the rest of the lot. I am just wondering how long before he renigs on something else by saying "It's worse than I thought" or "GWB didn't pass that info along." Each President does it, again no matter the label.

Of course this way we will see how far left he really is. That's one of the good things about lobbyists.

freddy

Yeah, that's what cracks me up, the poor man isn't even in office yet and he's already in it up to his hips.

Yes, for SURE it's worse than he thought, it's worse than it was last week and by Christmas it's going to be a lot worse. This is bad. This is a matter of years, not weeks or months. What anyone can do is anyone's guess.

I wonder what a "right" wing president would do, since people seem so afraid of a "left" wing president. My goodness, let's see. Is not Mr. Bush a "right winger"? And yet, was it not just weeks ago that Mr. Bush begged - pleaded with REAL concern - that the Congress and Senate vote "yes" on that bailout package? And now GM and Ford and Chrysler are on their way, caps in hand. What ho?

If GM goes down? I don't even want to think about it. What is it people were saying about those evil house buyers who bought houses they couldn't afford? "It's their own fault!!!!" Well, golly gee, it's GM's own fault, too. But since the Big 3 are the true engine of what little production economy remains in the US, I don't think they are going to be allowed to fail. Millions of jobs depend on the auto industry. Millions. Not thousands.

You're right, I don't agree with the bailouts either.

The thing I find funny is that people want to blame all of this on Bush. However, there have been Republican AND Democrat controlled House/ Senate over the last eight years and all the blame goes on Bush. The entire lot is to blame!

Pres-Elect Obama has been in the senate for almost four years so he is part of the problem, yet he gets a free pass.

GM, Ford, Chrysler have been forced to pay out to the unions for years. The unions have been extremely greedy and is part of the problem also. Guys not showing up for work get fired and GM forced to hire them back (I have personal knowledge of this one). Don't worry, someone will come in and buy them up for cheap. Probably Toyota.

Point is this, there is plenty of blame to go around on all of this. It doesn't fall on one or two people. Badly run Government, badly run businesses, greed, bad decisions being made and continuing to be made, it goes on and on.

freddy

I figured the big gas guzzling vehicles the American Auto Makers made might be the biggest problem with their lack of money. Had they been retooled and encouraged to make say electric cars and natural gas semis instead of the same old same old great big gas guzzling pickups and SUV's, things might be different for them now. But since we seem to believe there is an unlimited supply of oil in Alaska and in the Gulf of Mexico, we keep making the same crapola, believing that if we just drill it all up and things will magically take care of themselves.

I guess we could invade Canada after Alaska and the Gulf of Mexico dry up.

Or we can actually stop blaming the past mistakes and try to figure out how the heck we are going to fuel ourselves in the future, wean ourselves off of oil based energy and fix our economy and job loss rate. A first step maybe to admit we are addicted to oil.

Of course I have always believed the parable of the Ten Virgins might actually be about....oil.

I think T-Boone Pickens might be on to something.


T. Boone Pickens proposes energy plan for America

A critical message from T. Boone Pickens: "America is in a hole and it's getting deeper every day. We import 70 percent of our oil at a cost of several hundred billion a year. I've been an oil man all my life, but this is one emergency we can't drill our way out of. But if we create a new renewable energy network, we can break our addiction to foreign oil. On January 20, 2009, a new President gets sworn in. If we're organized, we can convince Congress to make major changes toward cleaner, cheaper and domestic energy resources.To get this done, I need your help. Check out the plan. If you think it's worth fighting for, please join our effort, and encourage everyone you know to do the same."

http://www.boonepickens.com/" target="_blank" target="_blank

It would be great if we could do something like this! Maybe this current crisis will be the impetus we need to make these drastic changes.


Lali

What am I missing here? When you click on The Plan in big letters, you get Pickins being interviewed. When you click on The Plan in small letters below the interviews, you get a one-page description of the problem, and a solution for 20% of our energy use at a cost of $2.2 trillion, and no details about where the money will come from or what the rate of return will be.

You know, the longer I live, the more I conclude that our corporate megamillionaires are dumber than dumb, and if it weren't for perpetual government assistance they would be sitting on a street corner with a tin cup in their hand. What they have is the access and the ability to shmooze and grease at the highest levels of government, doing and saying things that you and I would probably never stoop to say or do in order to get our way at the expense of everyone else.

Now T. Boone is taking his spiel to the American public - Sign Up Below.

What am I signing up for? Never you mind. Just sign up below.

He has made it pretty clear that he wants to make more millions. I think he has invested upwards of 50 million and wants to see a return on his investment. So he is lobbying congress and looking for investors even though his plan is very far from fruition..

Yeah, I thought TBP had some sort of good ideas until I looked at those ideas and saw how he completely was off base on capitalization and what he wanted. But, at the same time, I do say I tend to agree with him strongly on principles. Not as to how it would line his pockets, but in just how Americans are so blindly not embracing energy conservation, which we should have been doing since the late seventies, for chrissakes.



Yes, I can honestly say that I am green and energy efficient. I have recycled, even when it was not mandatory, I have always driven a small energy efficient car, I turn down my thermostat, I insulate, I think about my consequences to the environment.

I for one have NO sympathy with the American auto makers and their greed on latching onto the truck/SUV market, when common sense would be dictating that smaller more fuel efficient vehicles were what was needed.

It was nothing but sheer GREED, on the part of the American car industry and the American consumers.

GM made the deals with the unions. Suck it up, GM.

Were some of those bad deals? Do some union members abuse their privileges? You betcha.

But the unions aren't the problem, the problem is with GM and the other car makers who wouldn't think outside their little steel boxes. It sux.

And it's going to continue to suck.

Sorry, the union is to blame for some of this too. Unions served a serious purpose at one time and do not question that. However, they have turned into whores just the same as the big wigs at the automakers. The greed of the unions has a lot to do with the raise in car prices, they've got to cover the $40/hr pay rate for line workers.

As far as the SUVs being made, that was supply and demand. People wanted them so the automakers made them. Now people don't want them and the automakers didn't have enough foresight to be ready for it and have a broader choice in vehicles to cover the new direction.

freddy

Those mean old nasty greedy unions have a lot of nerve trying to get decent wages, benefits, hours and working conditions for their workers. Where do they get off making such demands? We need to go back to the days of the Gilded Age of the late 1800's where anyone is free to make their own Contract for Labor and work at whatever wages they and their employer mutually agree upon. Sure the individual worker has almost no power in that sort of arrangement. Sure the individual worker almost always loses in that type of system. Sure that led to things like six year old kids working in West Virginia coal mines all day for one potato.... sure that led to things like the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire .... sure that led to things like rich barons in mansions and the rest of us in slums .... but hey, thats America!

And if those greedy communist inspired unions dare to try and get formed, squash em like bugs under the bootheel of police and armed thugs hired to do just that. Better yet, shoot em like rabid dogs in the street like they did at the Haymarket in Chicago in 1886. That killed the labor movement for almost twenty years. That showed em who is boss.

SF. There's such a thing as the pendulum swinging too far the other way.

Alatar wrote:

SF. There's such a thing as the pendulum swinging too far the other way.

Thank you Alatar, that is my point. Unions were a needed tool at one time, when there were no laws to protect the worker as is clearly noted in history. Because of the unions the worker now has laws to back them up and protect them. I have no problem with FAIR bargaining unions, heck I belong to one. If you look back at recent "concessions" by the auto worker unions I think you will see that they know they got too greedy. Entry level wages have been reduced to under $20 but it was clearly too late. I earn a very good wage but I will never buy a new car, they are out of my price range.

If unions are absolutely needed then why are the Toyota and Honda plants in the US non-union and NEVER on strike? Why are their workers happy? Because of a solid working relationship with management and employees. It's a team effort to keep a business afloat. I was raised to buy American made vehicles only, which supported the American worker.

I am not anti-union when the union is reasonable. I also believe that management must be reasonable too. I've been on our bargaining unit and watched first hand as management was not reasonable and they continue with this today.

My point is simply this, greed can be found on BOTH sides of the fence not just management as is so often pointed out.

freddy

Does Toyota employee union workers?

I ask because I don't know.

http://www.gac.ky.net/CJToyota.pdf" target="_blank

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/busi ... yota-.html" target="_blank

No, I base this on what I have understood from conversations with auto workers and these two articles.


freddy

A union does not grant itself a contract. A contract, with all its terms for wages, benefits, hours and working conditions is a negotiated agreement between two consenting parties who sign it of their own free will and of their own accord.

This entire fallacy about workers getting too much and hurting companies requires the worlds smallest violin.

It reminds me of a different set of employers - owners of sports franchises - who complain that todays star athletes are overpaid. duh? Who signed that contract in the first place?

SF, you can only be speaking out of apathy or ignorance. Because if you know the facts, there are many businesses which are crippled by Unions that are too strong.

Our nearby airport is in very real danger of shutting down because the union has such a presence there that they cannot be replaced, and neither can they compete. It is abundantly clear to everyone involves that the Unions refusal to back down and to allow the company to set sensible salary levels will kill the airport. Its been happening noticeably ovcer the last 15 years. Its not imaginary. Its not a fallacy. Its a fact. Claiming otherwise doesn't make it so.

When there's one guy on a luggage ramp making €12 an hour and the guy opposite him is making €25 an hour, with an extra €50 per day because the flight came in before 8am, there's something wrong. And its not the guy making €12. He's working for a company thats competitive and profitable. The other is working for a state sponsored company that's making a loss.

Did they agree to these contracts? Yes. Did they have a choice? No. State sponsored intervention brought us to this point. Now the Union is so powerful that a threatened strike action can cost Millions per day.

This is the real world. These things are real.

SF, I am going to speculate that you were raised in a union family and/or are a union member of some sort.

Negotiate? Sure, when they walk out and cause a complete work stoppage what choice does a company have?

I can provide you with firsthand stories of workers being drunk on the line, leaving work without permission, sitting and doing nothing, telling hard workers to slow down that they are making the rest look bad, and the list goes on. These workers get fired and then are reinstated a short time later, with back pay, because of the union. Bad workers should be disciplined, good workers should be supported.

The unions have some blame in auto industry problems, to say anything different is short sighted.

freddy

Alatar and Feredir.... yes, I was raised in an union family. My father was a tool and die maker and I remember well him bringing home the union newspaper and me reading it (like I read anything put in front of me). It seemed all the men in my family including my two grandfathers and uncles were all union members. As a teacher, I was a member of the AFT for 34 years, and served as my high schools union steward for the last 21. I was even elected as Chairperson of the High School Chapter of the union which represented over 30 large High Schools in union affairs.

So yes indeedy, you betcha, I am union through and through and damn well proud of it.