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Split from Campaign 2008:War On Terror and the candidates

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Dave_LF
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Posted: Tue 12 Feb , 2008 5:05 pm
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MariaHobbit wrote:
Everything causes cancer.
True, but some things cause it with higher probability than others.

Regardless, we're probably headed for a future where cancer is more common than it is now, party because there are/will be more carcinogens and partly because people (hopefully) won't be dying of other things as much. So either we'll develop better treatments or we'll just start to accept the idea of youngish people arbitrarily developing cancer as normal.

And at this rate, this thread is going to have to win some sort of Osgiliation award. :D
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vison
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Posted: Tue 12 Feb , 2008 5:11 pm
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I take violent exception to this: "educating the more moderate muslims about the right way to behave. "

I'm pretty sure you didn't mean it the way it reads, Iavas. It just comes across as so . . .

It isn't up to "us" to teach anyone else on this planet "the right way to behave". That's what got the USA into this mess in the first place. And countless other little adventures by the USA and other nations in the past.

Most other people on Earth know perfectly well what is "the right way to behave". Their ways might vary from ours, here and there, but by and large, most humans share similar values. It is a truth often overlooked, but that doesn't mean it isn't a truth.

The problem is always with "governments". And governments such as Mr. Bush's particular one is a classic example. I'm sure he never intended to be a cruel invader who killed women and children - it seems he thought *gasp* he was doing the "right" thing. Well, he wasn't. And maybe in the future these guys, and I mean ALL these guys, might just stop and remember that they aren't God, and it isn't up to them to teach anyone anything.

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Ara-anna
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Posted: Tue 12 Feb , 2008 5:21 pm
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I'd even go so far to say it is what has gotten the western world it's problems. Not just the US. The English, French, Belgium and Spanish (ect.) all tried teaching people to behave. Never has worked out well for anyone concerned and most 'teaching others how to behave' has never, throughout human history, ended that peacefully.

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vison
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Posted: Tue 12 Feb , 2008 5:23 pm
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Ara-anna wrote:
I'd even go so far to say it is what has gotten the western world it's problems. Not just the US. The English, French, Belgium and Spanish (ect.) all tried teaching people to behave. Never has worked out well for anyone concerned and most 'teaching others how to behave' has never, throughout human history, ended that peacefully.
Yes, that's what I was driving at. I didn't mean to pick on the USA in particular, it's just that right now it's the Power and so takes the heat.

Today, I think, is the day the Australian parliament is going to formally say "Sorry" to the Aborgines for what has been done to them over the centuries. Another horrible example of "teaching people the right way to behave."

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Axordil
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Posted: Tue 12 Feb , 2008 5:31 pm
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DU isn't just used for anti-armor uses because it's heavy. Tungsten works for that. It's used because it combusts on impact at extremely high temperature. From wikipedia:
Quote:
On impact with a hard target, such as an armoured vehicle, the nose of the rod fractures in such a way that it remains sharp. The impact and subsequent release of heat energy causes it to disintegrate to dust and burn when it reaches air because of its pyrophoric properties (compare to ferrocerium). When a DU penetrator reaches the interior of an armored vehicle, it catches fire, often igniting ammunition and fuel, killing the crew, and possibly causing the vehicle to explode.
Suspicion, not confirmed, is that the oxides and salts produced by this combustion would be carcinogenic or otherwise toxic if inhaled, where the relatively weak alpha decay would suddenly be hitting vulnerable lung tissue directly (in addition to chemical toxicity). But the jury is still out on the whole question of whether or not the dust actually stays aerosol long enough to be a real hazard, or settles into the soil in concentrations significant enough to be an issue.

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Ara-anna
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Posted: Tue 12 Feb , 2008 5:32 pm
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On a side note...I keep reading DU as DWI or DUI. Makes for a weird read. :D

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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Tue 12 Feb , 2008 5:39 pm
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Quote:
Once again, I ask you to tell me where we go from here. You have already said the policy is wrong so please enlighten me with something useful, the old adage that "if you are not part of the solution then you are part of the problem" comes to mind.
I already did.
Quote:
Oh my, are you saying that soldiers are planting things? WOW , I hope I am misreading this.
No. As Dave points out they may also be experiencing the effects of DU.

Quote:
I take violent exception to this: "educating the more moderate muslims about the right way to behave. "
I didn't mean actively going out there and saying "listen to us..". I meant setting a good example through acting responsibly and with clear respect for all human life.

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vison
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Posted: Tue 12 Feb , 2008 5:52 pm
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"I didn't mean actively going out there and saying "listen to us..". I meant setting a good example through acting responsibly and with clear respect for all human life. "

Wow. What a revolutionary idea!!!!! :hug:

Iavas, you oughta patent it. :)

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Ara-anna
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Posted: Tue 12 Feb , 2008 6:07 pm
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vison wrote:
"I didn't mean actively going out there and saying "listen to us..". I meant setting a good example through acting responsibly and with clear respect for all human life. "

Wow. What a revolutionary idea!!!!! :hug:

Iavas, you oughta patent it. :)
I thought that's what religion was for ;)

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vison
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Posted: Tue 12 Feb , 2008 6:25 pm
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Great Scott, no. :Q That's not what religion is for!!! ;) Holy Smoke.

Or something . . . :D

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ToshoftheWuffingas
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Posted: Tue 12 Feb , 2008 6:44 pm
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*idle curiosity*

Why would depleted uranium be carried on a normal civil aircraft flight?

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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Tue 12 Feb , 2008 7:23 pm
His Rosyness
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Thanks vison! :)


I just got sent one of the dumbest pro-war/christian email forwards I've seen in a long time..
Quote:
A mother asked President...
>
> "Why did my son have to die in Iraq ?"
>
> A mother asked President...
>
> "Why did my son have to die in Saudi Arabia ?"
>
> A mother asked President...
>
> "Why did my son have to die in Kuwait ?"
>
> Another mother asked President...
>
> "Why did my son have to die in Vietnam ?"
>
> Another mother asked President...
>
> "Why did my son have to die in Korea ?"
>
> Another mother asked President...
>
> "Why did my son have to die on Iwo Jima ?"
>
> Another mother asked President...
>
> "Why did my son have to die on a battlefield on a
> field in France?"
>
> Yet another mother asked President...
>
> "Why did my son have to die at Gettysburg ?"
>
> And yet another mother asked President...
>
> "Why did my son have to die on a frozen field near
> Valley Forge?"
>
>
> Then long, long ago, a mother asked...
>
> "Heavenly Father ...
> Why did my Son have to die on a cross outside of
> Jerusalem ?"
>
>
> The answer is the same...
>
>
> "So that others may have life and dwell in peace,
> happiness, and freedom."
>
>
> This was emailed to me with no author. I thought
> the magnitude and the simplicity were awesome.
>
> IF YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO STAND BEHIND OUR TROOPS .
> . . . .
> PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, FEEL FREE TO STAND IN FRONT
> OF THEM !!!

My response..
Quote:
I thought I told you ages ago that I don't want to get right wing crap like this? :P I can't believe some people are ignorant enough to say
that just because a war long in the past was justified it must mean the
current one is too. That argument is illogical, and this email is very,
very stupid.

And in a reply back..
Quote:
Its only stupid to those are who are ignorant enough not to believe...

Oh boy.. I better leave this person to their stupor.

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Axordil
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Posted: Tue 12 Feb , 2008 7:43 pm
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Quote:
Why would depleted uranium be carried on a normal civil aircraft flight?
Counterweights. It's actually not uncommon on big planes.

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MariaHobbit
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Posted: Tue 12 Feb , 2008 7:48 pm
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Do they have to balance out loads on planes? I wonder what would happen if all the passengers ran to one end of the plane?

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vison
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Posted: Tue 12 Feb , 2008 7:50 pm
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Iavas, I hate "glurge" as much as you do. It SUX.

People obviously have too much time on their hands.

We need a return to the 16 hour days down t'pit.

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halplm
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Posted: Tue 12 Feb , 2008 8:25 pm
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that email was not talking about using past wars to justify current ones, and it was not ultimately talking about a sacrifice in war at all...

IT's not a well thought out email (no such emails are), but it has a valid point, and if you choose to ignore it or disagree with it, that's your choice, but it's not stupid.

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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Tue 12 Feb , 2008 8:32 pm
His Rosyness
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Cool, I learnt something today (the word "glurge").

hal, please explain this valid point.

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halplm
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Posted: Tue 12 Feb , 2008 9:01 pm
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There are things worth dying for, and the volunteer soldiers know it, and choose to take that risk, and because of it, the rest of us enjoy freedom.

As for Jesus dying for the rest of us, that goes far beyond just freedom.

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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Tue 12 Feb , 2008 9:05 pm
His Rosyness
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Quote:
There are things worth dying for, and the volunteer soldiers know it, and choose to take that risk, and because of it, the rest of us enjoy freedom.
You may be able to say that of some past conflicts, but not this one. The only way they could even justify starting this one was by deliberately cherry-picking intelligence and scaring the public with mushroom clouds. There was no "freedom" at stake (other than for a minority of Iraqi's fortunate enough not to be killed, crippled, or living in fear or destitution), and anyone who proudly states the soldiers are over there protecting their freedoms has been duped.

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halplm
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Posted: Tue 12 Feb , 2008 9:14 pm
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I, and those soldiers (for the most part), disagree, and they are the only ones that can really say.

But that's all I will say on the matter. As I've said, people will believe what they want to believe...

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