board77

Faramond wrote:

I wonder, MH, would your answer to this question change if you considered it only about your husband, in the hypothetical sense?

My relationship with my husband is as truthful as we can make it. The only reason there is a qualifier there at all is because sometimes we lie to ourselves, and when we repeat that to the other person, it gives them false info. So, yes, it would be difficult to love him as deeply as I do if he started lying to me.

Lidless wrote:

I cannot imagine a relationship succeeding where truth was told 100% of the time.

You see before you a veteran of just such a relationship! We are more in love now than 20 years ago. We are so much a part of each other now that I seriously doubt if one of us will survive the other's demise for long (long may that day be put off!!!)

Part of this total honesty is necessity. We are VERY different personality types (on the Meyer Briggs test) and our preferred modes of communication style only overlap in one area: that of concrete reality. If I talk to him about abstract, mental things, his eyes glaze over. If he tells me how to operate some kind of tool or machinery, I need refresher instructions EVERY TIME I use the tool. It just doesn't stick in my head. Our ONLY area of compatible communication interface is in the "describing things as they are" mode. And if we clutter the commo channel up with inaccurate data, then we have NO other means of really understanding each other. We would drift apart and start grating on each other instead of sticking to each other like velcro!

I can't remember the communications diagram I saw about interaction between different types, but there are basically 4 different temperments, and each temperment has 2 modes in common with 2 other types, and one mode in common with the third type. I've only got the one mode in common with my beloved, and we learned a long time ago to make it a high quality connection.

If you have two modes available, perhaps you can afford to degrade the quality a bit? I don't dare. We depend on that total honesty, or risk losing what we have.

Estel,
You give me hope for my daughter. I've seen so many messed up grownups with the same personality as my younger daughter that I fear she may never be truely happy. Thanks.

Anthriel wrote:

So I considered this model: Would I rather have a state of perfect truth, without considering love at all, or a state of perfect love, without considering truth at all?

ACK! Horrors both ways!

I've never been very good in arguments like this... I'm not a very good debater, and I think I might not explain myself very well.

Anyway, I think you all make very good points. I will enjoy reading further!

~Anthriel

Oh dear, I'm not trying to stomp you down, Anth.

I enjoyed hearing your perspective --- maybe I got a little too carried away in putting forth my own at the expense of yours.

I think, as you noted in your first post, that we may be approaching this from two entirely different viewpoints.

Wow, what a graceful and kind thing to say, Faramond!

Upon rereading my last post, I can see where it may have sounded a little petulant. My apologies. I really was being most honest and truthful:P; I don't think I have a particular talent for this kind of thing. Manwe was never my niche at TORC, although I was often impressed with the skills of those who made it their home.Maybe I should have tried a little LOVE with that truth!

I had tried to formulate an answer to what you had posted, and I'll PM it to you if you want... I did save it. I just found that by defending my own thoughts, I made it *faintly* sound as if I was advocating being untruthful, which is emphatically not true, and not a position I would never want to espouse, or be called upon to defend.

I have enjoyed YOUR viewpoints, and find your arguments, and those of the others on this thread, interesting indeed. In fact, I do not disagree with you. At all. Believe it or not!

I'll leave this stuff to the experts.

Anth said: It must be said, however, before I even start this, that I understand there is no way to objectively analyze something that is inherently subjective; something based on feelings and perceptions, like love and trust.

This is very true, and I don't think I considered it well enough when I was thinking about this subject. But there is more, just as important perhaps:

Truth, as far as any mortal mind can understand it, is also subjective.

Truth may be ultimately objective, yes. I tend to think that it is. But that doesn't mean I or anyone else really has access to this objective truth. Truth, which I tend to think of as immutable, can be suddenly changed radically when viewpoints are shifted. This is something Griffon implied when she mentioned the kind of breach of trust she could forgive --- the kind based on 'misunderstanding', on differing perspectives, on an ignorance of the true gap between the perspectives of two people. Sometimes an appeal to the subjective nature of how we perceive truth can seem like an advocacy for untruthfulness, but it is not, and this is a trap that should be avoided.

Too, there is far more to truth than just the 'facts'. There is such a thing as emotional truth, and this is very important as well.

To the question "Do I look fat in this?", even if the truth is "Yes, you do," if you love that person, it would be, in a sense, an emotional lie to answer with the factual truth, because with that factual truth you would also be implying that you did not care for the other person. The answer to this that I still see is to not let this kind of question happen, which is easier said than done, I suppose.

Yes, Anthriel, I would very much like to see your response, and I don't think you were being petulant. I think I've seen enough of your posts to trust that if you say you do not mean to imply that you advocate being untruthful, that I will not read that in what you say. I'd like to see your response in this thread, because it might be valuable to others, but PM would also be fine.

Okay, here is the post that I was going to send, and edited out. Hopefully it won't look too much like I am implying that lying is a good thing... I edited it out over that concern.


Faramond, I understand and appreciate your response! I think MY position might need a little better definition, though…

Please don't infer that I think lying is a good thing. Far from it. One of the things that I found so refreshing with my husband is his willingness to be open and honest with me... we both offer each other the truth of our feelings and hopes and crazy thoughts, and that level of intimacy has done a lot for our marriage. I trust him implicitly, and I know he trusts me... we are partners in life, and that is a wonderful place to be.

I’m not quite sure I can equate truth with fact, though. There probably is a universal FACT out there, somewhere, but truth is often viewpoint based. I guess I’m saying that my truth may be somewhat different from your truth, and neither of us are lying. Strange, but I think it may be true.

I also don’t think that all truths need to be spilled at all times. When a woman asks you if she looks fat in an outfit, your “truth” may be that yes, by golly, you’ve seen slimmer rear ends on a Mac truck.

But do you HAVE to share that with her?

Because what she is REALLY asking is if her fat rear end (she probably already knows what it really looks like) will affect your attraction to her. She’s asking if she looks good to you ANYWAY. The honest truth will wound her pride, something that is probably not necessary to do.

It’s not to say you need to tell her she looks like Mary-Kate Olsen or something… she won’t believe that. But if you take her in your big manly arms and tell her you can’t wait to get her OUT of those clothes, or something like that, her REAL question is answered, and you haven’t lied at all. I'm assuming...

So… discretion, maybe. Discretion, truth, respect, caring, desire, honesty, loyalty, and love… and hot buttered popcorn on rainy nights.


Why can’t I have it all?

~Anthriel

Anth--

I think it's clear you are implying that full disclosure is not always a good thing. Big difference from saying lying is good. Huge difference.

You're saying to shift the ground of the question to a place where the answer will be true emotionally, rather than just be true in a cold, factual way, but perhaps hurtful way.

Yes. That IS what I meant to say!

<wipes brow>


Whew! This communication thing can be tough...

If my husband were to ask me if something he was wearing made him look fat, I would answer him truthfully, though kindly. I mean, if he is actually worried that something is making him look unnecessarily bad, it would be a crime for me to not help him. Getting him to look better is more of a help than questioning his judgement.

IF he were to ask me such a thing (not likely, but IF) I'd say something like, "Well, honey, it is a bit tight around the waist, lets find something that fits you better! We should have thrown out that shirt years ago. How about this one??? NOW you look yummy!"

If he was looking kinda fat, it's my job to help him look as good as he can, if that's what he wants.

I expect the same sort of help from him, and get it. Once I was frustrated with my long hair because I kept sitting on it and it pulled *ouch!* , and asked him if he thought I'd look better with it short. He thought for a moment (I had short hair when I met him) and said that I should keep it long because it kind of distracts people from noticing how wide I am down below! I loved that comment! I have natural camoflage! People are so busy noticing the amazing hair that they don't really notice that I'm getting to be a rather hefty person.

I LIKE honesty.

Go to fitful sleep for a few hours, and this thread springs a most interesting conversation!

There's a few things in Anthy and Faramond's responses both that I want to reply to ( you communicate very well by the way, Anth, and that's TRUTH! :mrgreen: ) but I need to rush to get to work before the traffic gets to the highway. So this post will become a lot more fatter soon! :mrgreen:

Griffy, you need a nice graphic for situations like this: WATCH THIS SPACE!

"Do I look fat in this?"
"No."

What's the real question being asked here? Often, it is "Do you love me?" or "Do you find me attractive?" The answer to both of those, hopefully, is "yes". :mrgreen: But why ask the question in other words? Why not just ask the question? Fear of rejection, maybe? Of not hearing what you want to hear? There's untruth going on at two levels there - at one level the question asker is being distruthful, by not asking the real question. But the ANSWER will also be distruthful, or at least, it can be. Saying: "If he answers A, it is a yes, if he answers B, it is a no" can be an unfair game to play. You deceive yourself with assigning answers to such questions and especially with the meaning being assigned to those answers. Of course, this becomes truer how more complex the question gets. "He never says he loves me" is a lament I hear from my friends from time to time. Thing is, that poor guy may well be saying it in a dozen different ways they just don't look for. And that's where communication comes in again. If I ask: "Do I look fat in this?" I ask because it is hard to tell from up there, and the mirror sort of suggests I could pick a better-fitting cut, or whatever. If I want to know if the guy loves me, I'm much more likely to ask directly - or preferably in a way that could lead to a non-verbal answer :mrgreen:

To a large extent that is being honest again ... and having honest, straightforward communication.

Faramond wonders why the question "Do I look fat in this" gets asked. It is one of the little games that often gets played out in relationships, I guess. I've never cared much for games, or for "the dating game". I'm a more honest type, and I'd rather spend my time doing real things than keeping track of where the heck I am in this little game I'm playing with someone - and with their feelings. I'm not saying playing the game is wrong, I'm just saying that I, personal ME, is not a player. I can't play the dang thing, never been able to, so I do the truth thing instead :mrgreen: It has landed me in interesting situation before when I engaged a "player"

Your analysis of the question in the ending part of your first post, Faramond, correlates directly with how I see the whole thing.

However, you should also remember that females are ALL about communication. We yak away at anything, about anything, for hours and hours on end when we feel like it, which does happen a lot :mrgreen: Asking that question is often a way to get the response: "You are lovely, and I adore you and your body, and what about a bit of attention while we are at it?" out of the guy - because we love hearing that. We KNOW it is true and you feel about us that way, but we still want to hear it, because it is nice to hear :mrgreen: Wimmin are emotional creatures and most of us LOVE hearing the things we want to hear over and over and over again. "I love you", meant honestly, just never grows old. And it can be said in such interesting and enjoyable ways too. :mrgreen: So we ask for it to be said, even if we are asking something else entirely. "We" is a sweeping statement here 'cause really, different strokes for different folks [ we have a whole forum for discussing THAT btw ], and part of success in interpersonal communication is not expecting the other person to either communicate like you do, or magically pick up how you communicate. Lots of discussion, truth, commitment, honesty and understanding needs to go into making sure the communication channels are well-defined and as free of static and interference as they can be. And it takes an INTJ like me to use such scientific words to talk about such an emotional thing :mrgreen:

I'm glad you stayed around and posted your comment, Anthy! <- and that's the truth

About YOUR first post - truth has sharp edges yes. Often, ouch! Sharing truth sure isn't allways altruistic. But, I know I'm not perfect. I know I do annoying things. If someone shares those with me, gently - very gently, please! - and make sure not to hurt me --- or to try and hurt me, try and use truth to hurt, even if it inadvertently does ---, and tells me truthfully hurt wasn't intended, I can take that truth quite easily. Sometimes I am WRONG, and not correcting me is a lot less loving that correcting me. But SHOW THE LOVE when you correct me, and make sure it shows up since I'm going to be a bit insecure and worried, being corrected and all, 'sall I'm asking. That's how I work. That's love that forgives, and protects, and uplifts ( you used all the good words allready! :mrgreen: ). Loving someone properly puts their happiness and interests and struggles close to your heart - before your own. And they do the same, 'cause hopefully they are loving you back. Together, then, the whole thing becomes quite shiny. It is easy to give so much of oneself to a person who's just as busily giving themselves to you, really. You said it all allready in your post, Anth, so I'm not going to parrot it back atcha :mrgreen:

And ( just sayin' ) I must be dumb as a rock, I didn't pick up ANY petulance there, in fact, I thought it was a great post!

The second post, however ( gotta be truthful here! ) is even better. The thing you and Mr Anth has going is actually the thing Faramond's been advocating, the way I see it

Prim - either that, or a friend coming posting after me so I don't need to reply to myself! :mrgreen:

To round this off, a little story from recent RL about the perils of improper communication and white lies:

About a month ago my brother, who lives in my house at the moment, brought his girlfriend over for the weekend. I was sitting at the dining table working. They were upstairs in his bit of the house and had music playing to mask their conversation, but snippets did drift down from time to time There's no doors I could close between us, but that's not the point. They were having a bit of a snit, I could hear from the voice tone though the words itself wasn't clear and I wasn't looking to overhear. I DID overhear one little bit, though. When they JUUUUUSST started out she got the idea in her head that he likes a certain kind of potato chips. No doubt he thanked her for it the first time she brought him some, and ever since, she's been bringing him some regularly. It was her way of showing her love. Only problem was my brother pretending he LIKED them :mrgreen: He hates that particular brand! That came out during their conversation, and they managed to resolve it, even if the volume could have been softer IMHO Well, how do you respond when someone gives you something you like, thinking you like it? Instead of saying "Yummy thank you" it would have been better perhaps to say something like "Thank you!" and then later drop a 2 ton hint about liking ANOTHER kind even more. If the initial response was: "My favourite kind! Wow! You are SOOOO wonderful" etc etc, you deserve to eat yucky potato chips for the rest of your life, and learn to be more honest

Anthy, I completely and vehemently disagree with you.
You are made for threads like this. You stated your point eloquently, honestly and clearly.
No need to feel you have to back out just because someone differs with you. You have excelled in here, and you should continue these type of posts. You are more than intelligent and courteous enough.
I give you an A+.

But Prim, since you just posted after Griff, now it won't make sense for her to edit a response into her post. Tut tut, you screwed everything up. And now I've gone and made thing even worse. So tut tut on me.


MariaHobbit--

Interesting story. In this case you shared, the truthful answer is not a truly hurtful answer, so it is very clear that the truth should be told. There are a lot of subjective factors to consider when figuring out the truest way to be honest.


I also wanted to pick up on something you said earlier that I thought was a great observation, MH:

My relationship with my husband is as truthful as we can make it. The only reason there is a qualifier there at all is because sometimes we lie to ourselves, and when we repeat that to the other person, it gives them false info.


Griff--

Looking foward to what you have to say. And Anth does communicate well, doesn't she?


Edit: well shoot, cross post. And that was even better than I thought it would be, Griff.

--Faramond

Faramond - I said it while you were composing a post saying you're looking forward to me saying it :mrgreen:

Holby - you said it, too! Anth should be gently encourage to state her opinions frequently, since she states opinions VERY well. Just sayin'! :mrgreen:

MariaHobbit - that thing that Faramond lifted out of your post is something I picked up, went "Wow!" at, and then forgot to respond to. That is a very, very true observation. I tend to lie to myself, usually lies that puts me down, fortunately! :mrgreen: With that I mean, it is easier to correct a lie putting you down that a lie making you feel BETTER than you are. I sometimes need someone who will gently take me in hand and explain to me, in whatever way fits the occasion :mrgreen:, that that is a lie I should get out of my head and mental map of myself.

So is swooning allowed on b77?
*Faramond swoons for Griffy and her spectacular post

Well, it is now.



Griff, I think you have come to the heart of the matter when you start to implicitly focus on meaning. Your first two long paragraphs of your post are about meanings being hidden and obscured. The fear is that if meaning is clear and in the open, then one may hear and unambiguously come to understand something that one doesn’t want to hear, or something that makes one uncomfortable. If meaning is certain, then one cannot manipulate what is apparently true to make a desired result certain. If meaning is uncertain, then truth is malleable, and desires can be commanded.

The way each of us perceives truth is subjective. This is another way of saying that each of us has his or her own ideas of what things really mean. The way I perceive truth is wholly dependent on the meaning I give to words and ideas and actions. So if two people do not have agreement or at least broad understanding of each other’s meanings, then communication will be hindered and subject to frequent misinterpretation. Before I suggested that love and trust grew together and were interdependent --- I would suggest that same for “shared meanings” and “true communication”. Meanings are shared through communication, and communication is possible to the extent that meanings are common to both participants or at least understood by both participants. They must grow together, but if there is at least a seed of meaning in common in the begining, then given enough time anything is possible.

One of the perils of ‘games’ is that meanings are deliberately made unclear and are subject to change at any moment. If a participant is unsure of meaning, that participant does not know where he or she stands, and is subject to being “moved around”, manipulated, by his or her partner. I think sometimes both participants in a “love game” are subject to the power of the other in different ways, due to confusion of meanings each generates in order to play the game and manipulate the other to get what is desired. I would go a little farther than you, Griff, and suggest that being a ‘player’ is usually harmful to building a true love. I am not trying to make a judgement of others --- this is just what I see.


It is interesting what you say about ‘wimmin’ wanting to hear things over and over and over again. I am not sure if I can speak for all men, but at times I think that if I have said something clearly, there is no need to say it again. This is a gap of meaning: one person might consider something repeated emphasized and given a deeper and truer meaning, while the other might consider something repeated a cheapening of meaning. It does not matter who is right, of course, even if one 'side' could be right. I matters that this gap of meaning is perceived and then closed or crossed. You emphasize the importance of learning how the other communicates, and again this to me is part of coming to a shared understanding of meaning.

I think it would be a mistake to think of shared meaning as being just a tool for a deep and true communication. The simple fact that a shared meaning exists can be part of the rewards of love. Imagine the great comfort and joy that come from knowing that there is someone else who attaches the same depth of meaning to your life that you do. This is the heart of not being alone in the world, perhaps. It is also harder to lie to oneself when there are so many shared meanings, because the lie is also implicitly told to the partner.

But I think you already said it best:

Loving someone properly puts their happiness and interests and struggles close to your heart - before your own. And they do the same, 'cause hopefully they are loving you back. Together, then, the whole thing becomes quite shiny.

One cannot put the interests and struggles and happiness of another close to one’s heart without understanding the meanings the other uses. It is interesting that I see the importance of meaning emphasized implicitly all throughout your post, Griff, though you only once or twice use the actual term. Perhaps it takes an INTP to see that in what you wrote.

--Faramond


p.s. Yuck. Potato chips are too greasy. I like baked parmesan and garlic pita chips, but they’re hard to get sometimes.

Wow! I go on to a fitful and brief sleep, and come back to LOTS of good discussion!

Thank you, very much, to all who have said I communicate well. Unexpected praise, that, from people who communicate very well! And no, holby, I wasn't retreating 'cause someone disagreed with me... hell, I'm in management at work, it happens to me all the time , I was retreating 'cause I DON'T think I do a clear enough job explaining my thoughts.

I was concerned about that last post sounding like I was advocating dishonesty, and then MariaHobbit comes back and says she LIKES honesty, which sounds like she read that I didn't, which is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. (I DO like honesty, MariaHobbit! I do! Double swear!)

(And your story of your husband's reaction to the long hair comment is priceless!)

I've got more I could say, here... I AM a wummin, of course... but I've got to get my butt to work. Thanks for the great reading, guys!



P.S. Faramond, your picture is FAB! It is great to see who I've been hugging all this time... makes me wonder if I should get over my shyness and find a (long-distance, fuzzy) picture of myself to post!

Faramond - If an INTP is what it takes, then I'll take an INTP :mrgreen:

Your post is very interesting too, Faramond. And I had to read it quite a few times to really READ it. Lots of high quality thoughts in there ( or I have a rather low-quality mind, of course )

You condensed a sort of underlaying meaning out of my post - the importance of meaning. There is few things that distresses me as much as being misunderstood and then being powerless to do something about it. I sometimes worry that something I say, or do perhaps, will just get a totally wrong meaning for someone, and that will cause them hurt or distress or even dislike of me. And then I won't be able to convince them that I DIDN'T MEAN IT THAT WAY. That is one of the things that drives my basic honesty - a very real desire, maybe even a need, to be understood, to be what I am, and to be accepted for that --- or if I'm rejected, and it happens because it is impossible to allways be liked, then to at least be rejected for being as true to what I am as I can.

Well, it is interesting for me to read what you say about men ( or maybe just YOU ) feeling that a thing said clearly should become, I guess, a sort of internalized truth for its audience. Of course, most women can do that. But our more emotional brains still want to hear it As long as the words are not said like they are cheapened or not felt anymore, it doesn't take away any of their value - no-one wants a parrot! :mrgreen: It is a thing of balance and communication, I guess. That is rather interesting to me to read - I've wondered about that, to me, very male phenomena of thinking that, let's use the example, love should be taken for "granted" in terms of its presence, once the commitment is made or the words are spoken. Lots of my girl friends have complained about this and I've experienced it myself. You give me a bit of a glimpse into the world view that accompanies such behaviour, and it makes sense to me on an intellectual level. On a female level, I go: "Hufffff. MEN! They don't understand."

There's an important ( I think ) aside to that - one should take care not to cheapen things that have deep meaning. Just like you can't eat your favourite food everyday and still like it at the end of a surprisingly short period of time, treats should be kept back sometimes, to create suitable opportunity for being spoilt :mrgreen:

Yeah, that makes sense to me. :mrgreen:

Oh yes, of course I have to say that, again, it doesn't matter who feels what, working towards a common understanding, or even "agreeing to differ" is more productive.

*reads further through post looking for more things to write about*

OH, yes. The whole game thing! Sure, in high school you are usually not looking for your true love, and people are still developing emotionally. The games is a by-product of that intense yet insecure period, I think ( all people in favour of these games will probably come by with pitch forks to drive me and Faramond off any moment now ) - it establishes a common ground in misunderstanding, and playing by the "Rules", ununderstandable as they may be, gives some stability and guidance in that period. And, as Faramond says, it gives POWER. Relationships should tend more towards partnership than power, methinks, which explains my viewpoint! I've watched many basically decent guys being quite crushed under the stiletto heel of manipulative, game-playing girls. I've watched many bascially decent girls being totally used by game-playing guys. The thing goes both ways and is never pretty. Even a potentially hurtful truth, if told with tact, and care, and gentleness, and yes, love, since we are talking about that kind of thing here, is unlikely to hurt as much as those games. To my mindset, at least.

But then one moves past it, and, at least for me, something with more substance need to come in place of it. That thing for me, remains truth, as a good and proper foundation for whatever I would like to build on it.

Well - baked parmesan and garlic pita chips sounds just fine. One can never have too much garlic. And the thing about garlic is, it HAS to be shared. You can't have just one person steeped in garlic in a room :mrgreen:

But make sure you ask before bringing someone some. Just to make sure they don't spend the rest of their lives eating the stuff when they don't like it!

( that story cracks me up, really. My poor brother! And to an extent his girl. Hopefully they learnt a little lesson about communication! :mrgreen: )


Anthy. Yes. You need to get over your shyness and post a pic of you. I adore seeing the person I talk with in the avatar space while posting. And I'd like to see who I've been hugging all the time too

Anthriel wrote:

I was concerned about that last post sounding like I was advocating dishonesty, and then MariaHobbit comes back and says she LIKES honesty, which sounds like she read that I didn't, which is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. (I DO like honesty, MariaHobbit! I do! Double swear!)

ACK! I didn't mean to imply that, not at all! That was just some residual frustration with my daughter leaking through again. "Why are your grades in this class so low?" "I don't know" DUH! It's because she isn't handing in homework or studying for tests. But just TRY and get her to admit that. It takes shoving a grade analysis from the teacher under her nose and asking if there is a mistake here.

Teenagers!

Griff wrote:

As long as the words are not said like they are cheapened or not felt anymore, it doesn't take away any of their value - no-one wants a parrot!

As a parrot owner, I feel I must comment! The very first noise our birdy learned to make was a "kiss" noise. It was late one evening after we'd sent the kids to bed and my husband and I were sitting near the bird's cage and kissing. Pretty soon, we heard a distinct "kiss" noise come from the cage. It soon became his favorite noise, but he always does it in context. If he's sitting on my shoulder, he'll snuggle up to my neck, put his beak on my cheek and make a kiss noise while pressing beak to face. He WILL not kiss a visitor, nor make the noise while strangers are watching. But he can and does kiss us when he's in a loving mood. Sometimes he even kisses his favorite toys. Just for your info: Even parrots put meaning into their actions! (He's actually a conure, but that's beside the point!)

My husband and I say "I love you" many times per day. It doesn't feel repetitive to either of us. I get a thrill EVERY time he says it. Sometimes we IM each other during work and all we have to say is "I LOVE YOU" or leave such a message on voice mail. You can't just assume that someone is going to love you forever after, relationships take maintenance! Hearing those three little words is just an affirmation that we are still doing good in our relationship. And since we have the total honesty policy, we know that when the other says it, they MEAN it!

What I meant by lying to myself was when I think I'm doing something for one reason, but actually, if I really really think about it , my motivation might be entirely something else- and usually not so nice a reason. I'm not always clear on the reasons for some of my reactions to things, so its kind of hard to untangle sometimes.

MariaHobbit - "kiss" noise! :mrgreen:

I actually thought of you when I wrote about the parrot - your siggie pic for some reason sprang to mind! I used to look after those HUUUUGGGEEE parrots with the long tails for friends. When they come sit on your shoulder and siddle closer to your head with that "one wrong step and I pinch your ear off" attitude - that taught me the meaning of fear :mrgreen: Your parrot is the sweetest thing! I can just imagine him kissing his favourite toys ... awwwwwww!

MariaHobbit wrote:

My husband and I say "I love you" many times per day. It doesn't feel repetitive to either of us. I get a thrill EVERY time he says it. Sometimes we IM each other during work and all we have to say is "I LOVE YOU" or leave such a message on voice mail. You can't just assume that someone is going to love you forever after, relationships take maintenance! Hearing those three little words is just an affirmation that we are still doing good in our relationship. And since we have the total honesty policy, we know that when the other says it, they MEAN it!

And that is really all I can say to you. WOW.

( I adore saying "I love you" too - and meaning it. It is one of the lovely thing of having someone in your life to say it to and mean it ... the act of saying and affirming that yes, indeed, you are still theirs. Else, why say it? :mrgreen: )

Ahhhhh ...

*goes away to be mushy somewhere else*