board77

Relationships need to be reaffirmed, and saying "I love you" is a simple act of reaffirmation. Some men see it as being asked to say "In case you forgot--I love you." Instead it's just part of life, part of love.

If I were married to one of those "I told you once, don't you trust me?" men (which, thank God, I'm not), I would be tempted to say, "We made love once, what's the point of going to all that trouble again?" Hit 'em where they live.

Saying "I love you" can also be an act of apology or forgiveness--very useful in relationships, those.

In my church we take Communion weekly without fail, for the same sorts of reasons. Even strong, serious relationships need this act of coming back and touching the basis, again and again. Sometimes it's the only way to begin again.

Griff--

Low quality? Pah! I only swoon for high quality minds.

What you say about convincing someone YOU DIDN'T MEAN IT THAT WAY illustrates the importance of love itself in sustaining communication. This also recalls a point Anthriel made in her first post about the power of love to smooth over apparent abuses of truth. A misinterpretation of meanings can hack at the very foundation of trust, and in time this can topple everything. But the simple "desire to forgive" that is a part of love can sometimes lead those in pain over an apparent breach of trust to make a leap of faith and affirm that it was just a misinterpretation, even if the face of doubt that seems very rational and sure from the subjective personal point of view. This leap of faith comes from love, I think, not trust, for this leap of faith is what is needed to repair the trust. And this faith is only the first step, an affirmation that communication is still needed. Then the actual communication to repair the breach and come to a new ground of shared meanings must take place, and this can be even harder than the leap of forgiveness born from love that is required to start the process. The best thing, of course, is to try not to let this confusing of meaning happen in the first place.

Love should not be taken for granted, I agree with that. From one perspective, no longer saying "I love you" or something similar can make it seem as if a state of mind has been reached in which love is taken for granted, like the sun rising, something that happens no matter what you do. But from another prespective, the act of saying "I love you" or something similar can make it seem as if a routine has been settled into, a routine that happens because it must, like the sun rising, and here again love seems taken for granted. Now both of these assessment can be shot down, and I don't really believe them for either scenario. My point is there really is no one correct answer here for everyone. The correct answer must be found by the two people in love together.

Your point about high school is interesting. (Is it called high school is RSA too?) Those "love games" are probably less about power and more about the safety of being able to retreat from an intense situation by manipulating meanings. Yes, these initial games I am less inclined to be critical of.

The thing I love about that story about your brother is that POTATO CHIPS are featured prominently as a romantic gift. What's next, pork rinds?

So where did you go to be mushy, Griff?



Anth--

Thanks for saying my pic is FAB. The check is in the mail, by the way.

Yes, and you need to post a pic as well. Both Griff and me demand it!

TheLidlessEyes wrote:

Well, what is love? For me it's when someone else's life (and feelings) are more important than your own. And with that comes the small lies that are a necessary corollary to that.

Often the questions asked sound objective, but are short hand for subjective. If both people are aware of the short hand, it is not the same as telling lies.

"Did you enjoy dinner?" really means "Does my cooking ability meet your expectations?" to which you can say "Yes, that dinner was lovely." which really means. "You could feed me shoe leather and I'd be happy. The lovely company was what mattered the most to me."

"Do I look fat in this?" really means "Am I too fat for you?" to which you can say "No, you look fine." which really means "I love you dearly, you are beautiful in my eyes, and extra pounds would not change that."

"Do you mind if I do X?" really means "I want to do X, but I don't want to hurt you in any way. I'm torn between my happiness and yours." to which you can say "No, I don't mind" which really means "It doesn't bother me much, and I can see you will get great pleasure out of it, so it is a net good result in my mind."

On the other hand, if, as MariaH was saying, hubby wants an honest evaluation of a particular shirt, then to tell a small lie would not be the loving thing to do.

laureanna wrote:

"Did you enjoy dinner?" really means "Does my cooking ability meet your expectations?" to which you can say "Yes, that dinner was lovely." which really means. "You could feed me shoe leather and I'd be happy. The lovely company was what mattered the most to me."

Now what wrong with the shoe leather comment???? That's cute! And much nicer than the comments I get from my kids when they don't like something I cooked.

Now, it is depressing when you ask how someone liked the new recipe you tried out and they respond with retching noises, and pantomime throwing up. But, I also don't want false enthusiasm either. If no one likes it, I don't want to make that dish again.

"Funny once" is the term my husband uses when an experiment in cooking bombs.

Prim wrote:

If I were married to one of those "I told you once, don't you trust me?" men (which, thank God, I'm not), I would be tempted to say, "We made love once, what's the point of going to all that trouble again?" Hit 'em where they live.

Prim - I want a brain like yours! :mrgreen: That would be the best retort! :mrgreen:

*grinds brain into high gear to process Faramond's post*

( and hey, my brother's heart is quite accessible through his stomach! There's a reason he needs to gym as much as I do! If we two didn't ( neither of us thinks eating like a little bird is any good, it must be a family thing :mrgreen: ) we would have been a bit chubby )

The first paragraph about forgiveness is good, from where I stand. It also ties in with what I said waaaaayyy back when, I think - that there is levels of betrayal, and I can forgive some of them. The level of forgiveness extended is a function of the deepness of the love I have for the transgressor, but that function has a asymptote at the end, where the amount of love required for the forgiveness becomes impossible to achieve.

You, of course, are the voice of reason ( though I think Jn's taken THAT patent allready! :mrgreen: ) and the whole "I love you" thing will need to be worked out by the two particular people it applies to. People do differ.

There's this little area between the books and music fora, that sort of looks out towards the sunset. It is nice and quiet, though sometimes a low hum of conversation drifts in from books, or you hear pages rustle ... that is a perfect spot to be nice and introspective in, or just sit and think mushy thoughts!

laureanna - if those subtext answers are defined clearly, it is fine. But I'm someone who prefers to just ask the question I want to hear an answer to. Doesn't make you or me right or wrong, of course!

how can you choose one or the other...

love without truth isn`t really love, to be able to love someone you must first be truthfull to yourself and than the other person.
and to be truthfull is a form of love, cause lying and pretending to someone shows serious lack of respect and love for that person

off course, that`s where knowing your self and being truthfull to yourself kicks in cause if you cannot see the truth about yourself you`re making it extremely difficult for your partner to be truthfull

those who cannot face the truth about themselves, are usually those who claim how they are all for being truthfull, but also think the little white lies are neccessary...

I'm with moonfaeriegalena... love cannot last long without truth as love built on a lie cannot be sustainable and eventually falls in on itself twisting into something a lot less healthy such as hate or obsession.

Hum...this is a question here. I can see many points, I mean I think everyone tells little white lies, i.e. you see the one you love in an outfit they absolutely adore and radiate in, it does not look too bad but it does not look too good either, so what do you do....I know I would simply let it go, I mean the light in their eyes would be enough to make any outfit stunning.

Now to bigger points I like what Maria said earlier about being honest with ourselves. We have to be honest with ourselves to get an honest answer. And I believe we have to be honest with the big issues. I think that love can not grow with out honest open communication. Thats why I think people should wait to marry or be involved in a serious relationship a good long time after moving out of mom and dads and those influences. If someone does not know what they want and are not honest with knowing themselves and fall in love with someone they think fits some idea that is not theirs then the love will fail.

The example I can think of is Run Away Bride...it has the basic plot in it. She did not even know what type of eggs she liked, she bent into the pretzle of whatever person she happened to fall in love with, and when the time came she realized she was not honest and it scared her, thus she ran. And until she figured out what she wanted and needed from love was the time that she found it. I know its a movie but the process is still the same. I think its a shame too many people are not honest with themselves and those they 'love', they fall in love without being honest and sometimes that takes years for two people to realize "hey if I was honest with myself I would have not fallen in love with you".

laureanna wrote:

Often the questions asked sound objective, but are short hand for subjective. If both people are aware of the short hand, it is not the same as telling lies.

"Did you enjoy dinner?" really means "Does my cooking ability meet your expectations?" to which you can say "Yes, that dinner was lovely." which really means. "You could feed me shoe leather and I'd be happy. The lovely company was what mattered the most to me."

"Do I look fat in this?" really means "Am I too fat for you?" to which you can say "No, you look fine." which really means "I love you dearly, you are beautiful in my eyes, and extra pounds would not change that."

"Do you mind if I do X?" really means "I want to do X, but I don't want to hurt you in any way. I'm torn between my happiness and yours." to which you can say "No, I don't mind" which really means "It doesn't bother me much, and I can see you will get great pleasure out of it, so it is a net good result in my mind."

On the other hand, if, as MariaH was saying, hubby wants an honest evaluation of a particular shirt, then to tell a small lie would not be the loving thing to do.

I love this so much I want to print it out and stick it up on my fridge.

Thank you Laurie

I knew this was a good question to ask.

Ax,

Does this topic make me look fat?

Ara

Verzeihung Sie, bitte, aber ich kann nicht Englisch verstehen.

Also, Axordil, es heisst Verzeihen Sie bitte - Verzeihung is a noun and can not be used before a personnal pronoun - and you should use a negation with "kein" for the negative form of a noun, okay never ask a German teacher for the truth . This is my job, after all....

I will not really say anything on the topic... it might turn into venting.

Hey, it's been 25 years since my last class...whoops, I shouldn't have answered that, should I?

It's too bad Farawen's on a break, Ax--you and I could take our decades-old German out for a spin and send her around the bend.

Not that Nin would be likely to enjoy it, either.

Quote:

If you had to choose: Love or Truth?

Love. It’s not even an intellectual rationalization for me, just a subconscious understanding. But from the comments written here, I would say I agree the most with this:

Anthy wrote:

Real love? Where someone else's interests become your own, where someone else's problems concern you, where you can forgive imperfections in someone, and know that they accept yours, because of your shared love?

Well.

I vote for love.

Of course, I always agree with Anth. And Vison. But you already knew that.

The thing is, everyone here seems to be talking about relationships, of which love and truth are both important parts, and I can certainly agree that truth is necessary for a healthy relationship. But, relationships are not the sole province of love, or to be more precise, love transcends relationships in so many ways. One example is that of children. When I was a child I lied to my parents incessantly, and they knew it, knew that they couldn’t trust me. Did they stop loving me? Of course not. Even when all trust had left our relationship there was still love.

This may sound crazy, but I would actually go so far as to say that truth is never a prerequisite for love. I can think of so many examples where love is possible without truth, where love persists after truth has died away, where love is present in a sort of blind faith. This does not, in any way, negate the importance of trust in a relationship, and the need for truth to build such trust. It’s just a recognition that love is more powerful than truth.

I’m not all that religious these days, but I still remember one of my favorite Bible verses
1 Corinthians 13: 4-7

Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful;
it is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;
it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right.
Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Tinwe wrote:

One example is that of children. When I was a child I lied to my parents incessantly, and they knew it, knew that they couldn’t trust me. Did they stop loving me? Of course not. Even when all trust had left our relationship there was still love.

I've got a kid like that. Frustrating, but I still love her.

Prim wrote:

It's too bad Farawen's on a break, Ax--you and I could take our decades-old German out for a spin and send her around the bend. Not that Nin would be likely to enjoy it, either.

And I could join you with my decades old German that I learned while stationed near Frankfurt! I had the quicky course they give all the new arrivals, and the bulk of the remainder of my vocabulary came from my do-it-yourself "lessons" which consisted of translating a German novel of Heinlein's back into English. I've still got that book, with my translations scribbled between the lines on all the pages. You wouldn't believe how hard it is to take apart those long, strung together words to look up the root word in the dictionary, when you don't have any sort of real grasp of German grammar, and what is just stuck on to make tenses! Oh, well. It kept me busy during my off hours in the months until my husband arrived. And it gave me enough of a smattering that I was able to register on the B77experiment board the other day, despite someone having left it on the German language setting! By the way, Prim, could you hop over there and make me an admin? I'd like to play with that board, if I could.

<ting>

You're an admin over there now. At least, I turned on everything in sight for you.

Just advice--don't mess with the "Weather" or "User Fates" control panels.

Thank you!

I am a German teacher in real life, batteling hours every day to make some of those beautiful words enter into their heads... I love those comments.

(Back to the topic, now)