board77

But he has a moral right to attack his own fears (slurp). Whereas--I guess what I'm trying to say is, I would not care to be in Aragorn's company if he decided I represented, say, his unresolved issues with his mother. The consequences could be severe. For me. I am, after all, not a symbol of anything and would resent being eradicated.

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I guess what I'm trying to say is, I would not care to be in Aragorn's company if he decided I represented, say, his unresolved issues with his mother. The consequences could be severe. For me

Oh I think I could handle Aragorn's unresolved oedipal complex in a fairly adroit, albeit unmentionable, fashion.



However, Ath I refuse to take you seriously. You've been hanging around Voronwe too much. Tsk. Tsk.

<gentle slap on Ath's wrist>

Wingy, I'm sorry, truly I am, for my sake as much as yours; but I really found Serkis to be over-the-top in the acting department, the screeching struck a raw nerve. It became painful to listen to. I grant you the the CGI was virtually flawless and I thought the visual depiction was amazing. But ... I found both portrayal and direction self-indulgent in the extreme and that detracted from my ability to connect with Gollum the way I do in the book. I went into this in some detail in the Gollum thread in m00bies before it turned into an excercise for intellectual gymnastics. Although there were some truly astonishing, thought provoking posts in that thread.

<slurp>

I feel either a snit or a P/R debate coming on.

To Ms. Baggins, there were no cringey parts in the books. To even suggest such a thing is blasphemy. How dare you insult Tolkien's holy writ?
If Tolkien portayed Sam as a dog, then Sam was a dog. At least he didn't "send him away".

To Mr. V, I would like to call PJ's creation a "B" movie, but I just can't justify upgrading it. Talk about pandering to a dumbed down audience.
Talk about Hollywoodization. Talk about selling out. Talk about hack.

Sass, I too, found the "screeching Gollum" hard to take, but there are many other moments of quiet wretchedness and wickedness that, for me, balance that "over the top" element in the character's depiction. The EE scene in the Dead Marshes is one that I find particularly poignant, where I really did see "poor old Smeagol" very clearly.

I also dislike the many "shouting, violent Sam" moments in the films, but interestingly, they seem to be directly tied to the "screeching Gollum" . I really loved that extra scene in the EE, where Sam quietly lets Gollum know "the score" on the stairs of Cirith Ungol. This, to me, is so much more like book Sam.

There............taking me seriously now??

More wine???????

As long as we're returning to our roots ... .

Bakshi was better than PJ.

<wails>

But I can't see the star in that picture, Voronwe ...



Ath, you're right. The Dead Marshes IS the perfect Gollum/Smeagol scene.If only .... that subtle approach had been evident in much more of Gollum's scenes. So much was in-your-face that it lost meaning (for me) and I turned away. I also quite disliked Fran's direction of the schiziod Gollum/Smeagol persona in TTT. Think I'm in the minority on this.

I wasn't even going to talk about Sam ... but since you brought the subject up, I will say that it PJ and co. painted Sam with such a broad brush, intensifying hostility toward Gollum to such an extent that he became viscious. BookSam showed anger and suspicion but I don't recall downright visciousness.

Ath, that EE scene on the stairs was wonderful. Sam the quietly (but genuinely) menacing, Gollum the silent schemer.

Sam's bellowing bothered me much more than Gollum's screeching, in general--I expected to dislike Gollum, I guess, and I did appreciate the quiet moments we saw. But blustery Sam came down hard on a couple of favorite book moments of mine ("I can't carry it, but I CAN CARRY YOU! C'MON!!!!"), when I would have liked to see desperate determination almost silenced by thirst and exhaustion, as in the book.

At these moments the film's over-the-top heroics give us a Sam focused on getting to Mount Doom and throwing the Ring in. The book gives us a Sam focused on putting one foot in front of the next for the next couple of breaths. The first gets the easy admiration of a trained filmgoing audience. The second breaks my heart.

Is the pate all gone?

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The first gets the easy admiration of a trained filmgoing audience. The second breaks my heart.

Oh, well said, Prim. Well said.

Okay, a direct question:
What did you think of Elijah's acting in the Mt. Doom sequence?

When I re-watched ROTK I was very favourably impressed. This time around I tried to suppress Sam and paid really close attention to Frodo.

From when he is batting away unseen demons (?) hallucinations, to the moment, in an uncanny echo of Isildur's expression, he claims the Ring, I thought that Elijah's performance was superb. Both in sublty and intensity.

After that, of course, there's the somehow ludicrous sight of Gollum clinging onto thin air ... I don't know how else this could have been filmed to make it more real and less absurd ... but it does detract. Especially following Frodo's declaration " The Ring is Mine."

<cough>

Sheesh! Can you tell that I'm dying for some LOTR related topics???
Really? You can?



Pate? How about a nice watercress sandwich?, on brown bread, naturally.

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Sheesh! Can you tell that I'm dying for some LOTR related topics???

Like this one?



Just sayin', is all...

My reaction to Mount Doom in a moment....


ttbk

I honestly thought Elijah Wood was brilliant on Mount Doom--and in many other places. Sometimes I try to keep my eyes on him even when the dialogue and action are elsewhere, just because his performance is so real and thorough. But so much of it is silent and reactive, and some of his big near-death moments were unfortunately filmed and directed--I think both those factors cost him the recognition his performance should have had.

The moment where the Ring claims him chills me. His face goes cold, his eyes go black and lightless, just in the moment between two breaths--even before he turns and speaks to Sam. And someone on some board, somewhere, pointed out the lizardlike cock of his head when he sees Sam at that moment--as if he's saying "What is this thing? Must I kill it?"

Excellent watercress sandwiches, Sass. Did you bake the bread yourself?

Oh, there's always plenty of pate at a m00bies party...........and Shiraz.............and holby

That wonderful, iconic line from the book also fell short of my expectations, Prim. I've always "heard" it spoken with hoarse, heartbreaking courage, almost lovingly, like a desperate parent reaching out to an endangered child, trying to remain strong, knowing that this last remnant of strength is the only hope left. *sniff*

Geez, I wish we had some varmit dip.

Ack! I'm falling behind............musn't sip the Shiraz..........must glug and type!

I also think that Wood nailed it in the Mount Doom scenes. And here, oddly enough, I really like the change that Jackson made to the manner in which the line "The Ring is mine" was delivered. In the book, Frodo's says this in a voice "clear and powerful" that almost drowns out the sounds of the convulsing volcano.............and it works..........in the book.

Wood's quietly menacing delivery of the line, along with that creepy, manic expression..........a wonderful, and extremely effective surprise!!

But my very favourite "Mt. Doom moment" is right there in your sig pic, Prim. For both Sam and Frodo. Such a genuine and underplayed scene (although Semprini would argue against me on both counts). It made my husband cry, and I have never seen him cry at a movie........glassy hints of tears in the eyes, yes..........but never REAL crying. And he took my hand and held it as we both sniffled into our tissues.............ahhhhh, it was a great, great moment.

I absolutely LOVE how Frodo's expression when the Ring finally takes him is soooo eerily reminescent of Isildur's expression in the prologue.

*whips out especially large bowl of varmit dip... fermented gently, and well-aged*

Elijah is such an interesting actor to me. He was adorable as a child, and, as a man, is still... adorable. He could have banked on that appeal, and been successful, I'm sure, but somewhere along the way he learned to ACT.

I'm so glad.

Any Shiraz left?

Holby wrote:

Bakshi was better than PJ.

Certainly, but better at what? Hmmm?

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What did you think of Elijah's acting in the Mt. Doom sequence?

Loved it. From the desperate clawing his way up the mountain, to running into the Sammath Naur, to "The Ring is mine!", I thought he was great.


But, Gollum riding him, no, it's too comical a sight. Doesn't work. I always envisoned them wrestling each other, not the bucking-bronco thing.

And what's with the mud splat noises as Frodo was walking around being invisible just before that? Hmm?


Shiraz? I dunno....

ttbk

Anth!!!1

Well, OF COURSE there's Shiraz left..........and a glass of unusual size with your name on it! :cheers to you, my travelling friend! (I read through your journal in Aunties............great trip........awesome pics!)

Ooooooo.........varmit dip!! Brought home a little something off the road, did we, hmmmmmmmm?

Speaking of Elijah (it IS a great name, is it not?) I've been reading some initial reviews of his performances in Hooligans and Sin City. Sounds like the lad is determined to break out of the Frodo-mold rather, erm, aggressively, to say the least. I wonder how the fangirls will react to their darling being cast as cannabilistic, soul-less predator?..................evidently he is extremely creepy.......very effectively so. Pity I won't be able to see Sin City, as it sounds beyond my gross-out tolerance level. I mean, CSI is about my limit.

ttbk!!

Oh, I so agree with you on Gollum wrestling invisible Frodo. Actually, I was quite surprised that Jackson decided to film it that way, fully expecting that he would reject it for the unavoidably wierd (and kind of stoopfid) way it would appear if presented as "canon". I think it would have been better to have seen the whole sequence through Frodo's eyes.........one last, powerful look at that "nether world" of the Ring's influence. Ah, well.

And if you don't like Shiraz, we have loads of other refreshments........Coke? Lemonade? Iced tea? Glacial water? I've still got holby's cooler from teh beach party last August..........and I always keep it fully loaded!!!

I actually managed to osgiliate a completely "silly" thread into (at least partly) a serious film discussion. Pretty impressive, if I do say so myself.

I would join the discussion, but Prim and Ath have pretty much said everything that I would say already.

I don't know, V. I think that turning a "silly" thread into a serious one deserves a word other than "osgiliating"... *puts on thinking cap*

Sass: I vaguely remember that thread of yours on TORC. I'm also sorry for you that you don't enjoy the movie version of Gollum, especially since it seems to ruin the films for you. It must just be a case of personal taste, because most of the time I find Serkis' performance to be near-perfect. The one time I do find his performance over the top, though, is after Sam overhears part of his conversation with his own reflection in the water. I usually cringe on the "Smeagol wouldn't hurt of fly" line.

Oh, but I agree about the brilliance of Elijah Wood's performance in the Mt. Doom scenes. But I personally think his performance during the whole film is underrated.

Google is Voronwe!





ttbk