board77

Before I say another word, I must repeat something I've said on the boards before: I don't understand half of what's going on. I'm really sorry, but I'm just a stupid little kid who's never worked professionally before and when there's too many "big scary words" present, my system goes into overload.

That, and my personal life has gone to hell over the last nine months or so, but after my grandfather died in April, I just can't seem to get things back on track so I keep flying back to Toronto to avoid the life I should be working at over here.

I'm lost in more ways than one.

I'm gonna try to get through this thread tonight, but there is a lot, and I've almost no time to do everything that I need to. B77 opens on Sunday (my birthday - will it be a good one? Who knows), but I have to leave on Thursday for my cousin's wedding in, yes, Ontario. Not only do I have to get reaquainted with the site, but there's all this stuff to vote on and old threads to re-read. It's so much. I have so many posts to go and edit, and just two days to do them. Dunno how I'm gonna do it.

If I end up double or triple posting, I'm sorry. Y'all seem to be peppy in this thread right now, but I've got a lot of fire and brimstone, so it might stick out.

In case I misinterpret what this thread is for or if any decisions have already been made, I just want to make my opinion clear: I don't think any of our old threads should even be visible to new members. Yes, I am paranoid and mistrusting and probably a hypocrite, but I'm not worried about proving anything to new members about what I used to be on this side, and am only pre-occupied with continuing on as normal, like I have been for months. Haven't thought about the petition, TORC, or all the fighting in a long, long time, but I'll have to relive it every time someone new signs up and starts a thread referring to the read-only stuff that pissed them off. I just don't think it's a good idea.

Anyway, I should start reading and see if I can't organize my thoughts better. Well, I know I won't be able to, but I should catch up on this thread all the same.




*E*

Jude wrote:

As for the Torc threads, those are an important part of our history.

I agree 100%. They are part of our history. Not "theirs". Having been away from the internet for basically three months, I realize how little the petition business and all the fighting that came afterwards affects me right now. I never even think of it when I post here. board77 is truly it's own site, and has been for a number of months.

My fear is of all the people who've been slagged off in the past, coming in and looking for those problem threads, resurrecting the old hurts, and B77 will never be able to fully grow because we'll keep having to deal with this circle of death. I don't want any of that TORC crap from way back when to be part of how things turn out on Sunday or forever after. I know how you're going to argue that, but I mean that the threads don't need to be out in such plain view. Getting attacked by a dog as a child naturally had it's mark on how I grew up, but I don't need to keep the scar around in such plain sight, forcing others to comment on it and continually bring it up every time they see it.

I want to keep those old threads for my own viewing pleasure (read through two of them tonight and was reminded of how much I love this place, the people on it, and the discussions we had back in those crazy days), but it is no goddamned business of anybody else's. Yes, this is thinking about the trouble-makers who might pop on by and we all know who they are. Some of them may join, some might not. There will be lots of good people who sign up, and I welcome them, but I still don't believe they need to see what went on back then. Unfortunately, I don't have time to save all of these threads nor beg the admins to help me delete stuff, but I can only beg that if the old threads get deleted, can someone save a copy of them first? I don't want to forget what went on, I just don't want it to be part of how B77 develops as a site from herein. I don't want to lose such a big chunk of my post count, but the things that were said need to be forgotten by those it'll end up hurting. It needs to be invisible for them.

I understand when people say they have nothing to hide, but that's assuming people are gonna come here with the best of intentions and read the old threads with nothing but a clear and understanding head on their shoulders. Not gonna happen! I have nothing to hide amongst you people, whom I trust, respect, etc., but I'll be fucked if I'd share the same things with these other idiots, no matter how kick-ass I feel I made my points back then. These wolves are gonna come here, find what they need, fit it to whatever opinion they already had of us, and nothing we say can make a difference. We can only help them, not ourselves. I don't care about transparency - if they're only joining to dig up dirt, then who cares what they think, or how hard we need to try and impress them? That's all you're doing. Trying to impress people who don't intend to work with you in any way. I guess it's kinda noble, but in the end, it'll only hurt ya.

I believe in pretty much everything I said back then. Yes, shame on me for being embarrassed by some of it, but I can't help it since I always write with an audience in mind - change that audience, and you'll change how I feel about what I said. I wrote things here that I was not allowed to at Tolkien Online, and not really welcomed to write to those guys in private (the one time I remember doing that, the only replies I got were from Ethel and Squiddy, who were members here). Now I'm supposed to leave it all around for the people who didn't want to hear me in the first place to read it and make trouble? Sorry, but I do feel betrayed by that. I know it's all part of our history, but I didn't realize I was contributing to a future example. I stand by what I said, but that doesn't mean it's gonna matter to those who are going to read it. I said some mean things about people because I was so comfortable at b77 that I didn't want to keep anything in my head, but out in the open for YOU guys to read it. I see no need whatsoever for those people to be able to read that stuff about them. No matter how many good things I then went on to say about them, we all know they're going to focus on the bad.

Something else to think about:
Remember how all those non-petition posters joined in on the Lidless thread after he was banned? Or the IE thread, the one in the TOR forum, and anything that popped up after the February bannings? Remember how the mods' and admins' actions made these people finally see TORC for what it was (it's bad side, anyway)? How revealing those incidents were of their characters? Those weren't even folks with an agenda like we may have been, and certainly the TORC admins were. They just saw an attitude they didn't like and spoke up about it. Do you not think we're gonna get a taste of that as well? Anyone could just look up those threads and read just one damning post and consider all of us assholes. Even if we were at the time (and I'm not saying we were), that's not who we are now and I don't want to encourage problems like that.

Being open is fine, but we're also revealing our Achilles heel and pretending someone isn't gonna take advantage of it. Even if we got modern medecine and Achilles may have been saved these days, I bet he'd still prefer not having been shot. Me too!

I really appreciate how many of you have been saying (to Wilma, for example - I know she shared my concerns) how you've got her back and she probably has nothing to worry about. I agree that she probably has nothing to worry about, and I sure as hell got her back. But I also saw her get banned for no reason at all a few months ago, and I don't need to experience that twice to understand that some people are gonna find problems where there are none, and then they're going to make it our problem. Even if a lot of that stuff is behind us at B77 now, I still notice that a lot of you won't be going to the Oxford moot, and it seems like I'll have twice as many plane tickets to go in debt for just to hang out with you guys. So obviously it is still an issue. Because of that, I don't wanna make it more of one by putting all my cards on the table. I never once understood why Jon and Ted were so pissy about not being able to see what we were saying over here, when they did the same with their secret mod forum. I don't care what they're saying in it, but I sure as hell don't wanna show them what I'm saying in mine in some lame attempt to appear better than them. There's being trusting, and then there's being stupid. The stupid part comes in when you choose to trust someone you know you can't.

Really, anyone who joins and doesn't care about the petition-related business isn't gonna read those threads, so they become pointless, and anyone who does care about the petition-related business is gonna read as much as they can, and it's those people I don't care to accomodate. What'll happen is that however bad you think some relationships may be stressed right now - is gonna be a million times worse, and probably irrepairable. But even worse is that whenever someone new joins, they're going to go back and read it all, and if they can't reply to it, they're gonna start a new thread on it, and it'll all start all over again. If you open the boards with those threads around, you'll be doing more back-peddaling then forward motion.

I'm glad we're opening. I want to post again with brambleroseGamgee, and vynaca of mirkwood (who I promised I'd restart her invite thread on April 1st, but then y'all changed directions on me). But I know what our weak spot is and if you keep it around, it's gonna be a problem. It's like yeah, I'm naked under my clothes and everybody knows that, but I don't need to go around flashing people just to prove it. I'll be too exposed to people who would use that to hurt me. Any other analogy will do, but the point is that those threads need to be unavailable to everyone but us. Even the posts of mine I'm deleting, I'm saving on Word, cuz like you say: it's part of my history. I completely neglected my TORC adoption thread for a year, but when the hacker deleted all traces of it, it hurt like hell. I may not have made good use of it, but it's part of me and I wanted it to always be around for whenever I got back to it. The old board77 was amazing for what it was, but it's something different now and I want to move with that, but keep a private copy of what it used to be.

I've still got the whole thread to read, but that's my stance. Thanks for your time.




*E*

I agree!!!! Its nice to have someone understand where I am coming from (along with Truehobbit).

Well, you heard an earful from me on the phone. I just hope you didn't think I'd crapped out on posting it after I'd been home over a week. Crazy sleeping patterns and an attempt to write a long report about being in Toronto kept me from going through this thread until now. That, and it being 34 pages.

Just another note: today I noticed that The Grey Havens messageboard has gotten rid of all it's threads. Berhael pointed out that Leonides* is back on TORC. He'd previously cut a deal to be unbanned if he made some changes on his board. Who knows if deleting every thread was part of the deal for getting back this time, but it is enough to make me sure that these guys are still on patrol regarding stuff like that. I don't trust 'em one friggin' bit!




*E*

I think that is what it comes down to for some people. Trust. Do I trust the people who will be reading these thread. Do I trust what they will do with this information? On both counts no (sorry people who will be reading this).

For other people it's morals.

I think though that maybe Leo * just took down the board since it was taking up space and I am sure they had to pay for it.

*E* thanks for sharing your thoughts. Honest as always.

I'm not going to repeat my views, but I do urge you to read through this thread and at least make an effort to understand why in the end such a high percentage of people eventually decided that the threads should not be deleted.

No, no, don't repeat yourself just cuz I was late to the party, V. I know I'm 34 pages behind (and the board in general's got a good three months on me). I'm sure I already know why people came to decide what they decided, and I will hope and pray to the almighty that I am wrong, but I just don't think I will be. It may take an ass-kickin' in Oxford to prove it, but I'm very sure of where this will head.




*E*

But I also saw her get banned for no reason at all a few months ago

And I got banned for no reason, too. As did many of us.

We got banned because of who they are, not because of who we are. Am I going to hide my head in the hopes of being 'safe' a little bit longer from their irrational actions? Not a chance.

Might be that when certain TORCers see what's written here, we'll all be banned again and this time it will be forever. What they do is out of our control, whether we show these old threads or not. If not today, then tomorrow, some inane thing will tick them off and they'll use the absolute power they've granted themselves to feel big and important by hurting someone else.

We can't stop that from happening. We can't do anything about it. All we can do is be who we are and try to see that the board is run according to our principles, not theirs.

Jn

Brava, Jn.

We can't abandon our own values to keep someone who doesn't share them happy. That's giving them power over us. This is a place where they don't have power. I don't think they'll like it here.

I wish you could all stop that them vs us stuff!

Anyone who joins this community has the benefit of the doubt from me. I welcome anyone who wants to be a part of what we're doing. There need only be "us."

This is why I don't think we should form our policies and decisions around "them" and "their feelings." Anyone who isn't here has no right to a voice in what we do here. Anyone who is here is part of B77, unless they make it clear they don't want to be.

Primula_Baggins wrote:

We can't abandon our own values to keep someone who doesn't share them happy.

Oh, but I do think it pleases them to have access to those old threads. I don't see how I'm abandoning values to keep it from them. It is because they don't share those values that I don't want them near it.

I might continue posting like I used to, I might not. But since we were all tested during those rough times, it won't be the same kind of tests we'll go through from now on. You can keep the same values you have on the battlefield that you do in your own home, but they are still two different places. I still have a lot of the same thoughts and feelings towards things now that I did during the bannings and petitions and stuff, but I don't really have to carry on like I did then because it's just not the time anymore. But I'll still protect what happened back then, especially when I think it'll negatively influence what happens in the future.

EDIT:

truehobbit wrote:

I wish you could all stop that them vs us stuff!

Yeah, me too. I know I am hypocritical sometimes, but then, my brain isn't a perfectly played game of chess - not all the thoughts match up into a nice little package, but I try to play all the same. Truth is, when I go through bad experiences with people, I get more paranoid and distrustful. It's not hard to understand. If I'm in an alright mood, things don't generally bother me, but when I feel I've been sniped at, or a "friend" picks a fight with me, I feel utterly destroyed and immediately think that everyone is out to do the same. It's not really fun being paranoid, but I think most of my fears regarding the likes of Jon and Ted and others are pretty waranted. I'd change my mind if I actually felt I should.




*E*

We'll see what happens. But as was pointed out many times in this thread, deleting everything would be no guarantee of peace. Someone coming here looking for dirt would only be certain that awful things had been hidden from them—things far worse than what is actually there.

Primula_Baggins wrote:

deleting everything would be no guarantee of peace.

I'm not saying it would be a guarantee, but I don't feel the need to hand it to them on a silver platter, either. We've all seen how people can purposely misinterpret what they've read, or outright make it up. I'd rather have them work their creative heads into a fury than supply them with something that I myself feel didn't always come out right.

I don't think anyone could come up with something worse than what is actually there in some cases. I'd rather they go ahead thinking something awful had been hidden from them, then for them to get the tiniest glance at what was actually said and run with that, spinning it into a non-truth and saying that it was here plain as day.




*E*

As was also pointed out in this thread, some of the people we're talking about already know what was said about them—someone here passed things on. They may think whole threads were taken up with that. If they come and look, they'll find out they were wrong.

They might even find out they were wrong about what happened and why it happened.

Primula_Baggins wrote:

As was also pointed out in this thread, some of the people we're talking about already know what was said about them—someone here passed things on.

Yes, I remember our mole.

Quote:

They may think whole threads were taken up with that. If they come and look, they'll find out they were wrong.

If I came across even one nasty comment about myself, I wouldn't exactly be celebrating the fact it wasn't a thread-wide deal.

You guys want to wave these threads around for all to see. If I had known this in the begining, I never would have participated. If I wanted to say these things to these people, I would have. Sometimes I did, and they never ever replied to me, or seemingly ever took that information into consideration. Why they'd try now, I don't know. Especially if as recently as today, Jon got Leo* to delete his entire messageboard. I know they're up to their old tricks. I see no reason to help them out in that regard.

Quote:

They might even find out they were wrong about what happened and why it happened.

Might.

If it was in them to do it, I think it would have happened by now, but there is always a chance.

All I know is that I wrote a really long e-mail about board77 and what it was and why we started. This was kinda early on in the proceedings, I believe. I'm not the only one who offered up a hand like that, but they never took it, and just kept playing their games. And that was when they didn't know what we were sayin'. They have no reason to treat us with respect if they knew every step that went into it, no matter how right we may have been to feel and act like we did.




*E*

E*v*e*n*s*t*a*r,

You don't know me. I've been around long enough to have been banned just for standing too close to Lidless.

The consequence of your current perspective on this is to assign someone else control over the image you project of yourself and how you react. Our history reminds us and informs others of who we are. I, for one, am not embarrassed, by it. Some of it is just wonderful and a little of it is petty, but understandable, given the situation. Others can only have as much power over us as we give them. If someone refuses to acknowledge that what was done or said was a reasonable reaction to the circumstances, I'm not sure why you would care about their reaction or provide them a willing audience for their misguided views. They can just be ignored. No one owes them a response. You can control what you expend your energy on. I would expect others would have better things to do with their energy too. In the unlikely event they choose to be disruptive, they can be controlled.

Let's be honest about who we are, be proud of it, show a little tolerance for the immature, and keep moving forward.

The threads are going to be locked the day before we open. They're going to stay right where they are, on back pages, gradually sinking. They can't be bumped. Nothing links to them. I don't see how that constitutes "waving them around for all to see."

But it also doesn't constitute pretending none of this ever happened.

Edit: Cross-posted with Idylle's excellent advice.

I don't for one second believe anyone will be banned for what they said here. That's out of TORC's jurisdiction and TPTB would make themselves look stoopfid all over again. I don't think they're looking to go down that road again. None of us are banned right now, so they don't have any leverage to hold over our heads like they may have with Leo*

How long will this thread be staying open? I just want to know how much time I have to go editing out all the links and names.

The poll ends Saturday at 11 PM GMT, which is I believe 6 PM Texas time. No official action such as locking can be taken until then, but it might happen at any point after that—there will be a lot of last-minute details for the Rangers to cover, so we'll be motoring.