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tolkienpurist
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Posted: Fri 28 Oct , 2005 4:33 am
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hal and Cerin, thank you for clarifying your respective positions. I will revisit them in six to eight months time, if there then seems need to discuss what's wrong with b77. I hope there will not be.
Cerin wrote:
truehobbit wrote:
Giving that power to one person or even to a group of five people means the rest of us are reduced to the status of children, with no concern in the world but to enjoy, and coming to believe it's our right to enjoy without being bothered by pesky responsibilities.
When we first started setting up this board, there was a basic consensus that we wanted to be responsible, <snip>

Yes, I think that's one of the basic conflicts here. Some want the responsibility, others don't (not because they are not responsible people but because they prefer to exercise their responsibility in real life venues, not on a messageboard).
Yes, thank you. This is exactly it. This concept - because we are adults who have real life responsibilities most of the time, [some of us] just want to hand the reins over to others who can make the decisions the rest of the time - it's not a concept confined to Internet messageboarding, but it's applicable here. I've made my views clear enough, and people seem to have understood them, so I'll leave it at that.

EDIT Ax, did we not all come around what you said in your last post? I'm not sure that anyone disagrees with that. I think that hal's point is entirely separate from that.
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Axordil
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Posted: Fri 28 Oct , 2005 2:34 pm
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TP--

I just wanted to make sure Halplm understood me. Because that matters to me.

Some of the issues in this and other discussions have arisen when "everybody" understood something, except that "everybody" didn't include anyone but the person who said "everybody" was on board.

You will pardon me, I trust, if I wish to err on the side of certainty and clarity when the discussion has been, for much of its duration, less than certain and clear to various folks on various sides of the various issues.

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halplm
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Posted: Fri 28 Oct , 2005 4:11 pm
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I get you Ax. I don't think anyone is disputing the bad timing of the joke. The only reason I've argued the way I have is that it is evident that many people would feel the same at ANY time.
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Axordil
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Posted: Fri 28 Oct , 2005 4:26 pm
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hal--
Perhaps. And there are probably those who think it would be funny anytime, too. It may simply be a case of whose ox is being gored, or it may be a question of deeper personal predilections. And as I said, I think very, very few people are really of the "never" or "always" persuasion on most issues in life, even when they think they are. In my experience an absolute position generally indicates that the person who holds it has simply never had to face the issues it addresses personally...but perhaps I've led a sheltered life. ;)

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Fixer
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Posted: Fri 28 Oct , 2005 4:38 pm
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Absolutists tend to be zealots of some kind and aren't very able to deal with everyday life in a productive fashion. The sane people recognize there are no absolutes, there are always exceptions.

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vison
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Posted: Fri 28 Oct , 2005 4:56 pm
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Fixer wrote:
Absolutists tend to be zealots of some kind and aren't very able to deal with everyday life in a productive fashion. The sane people recognize there are no absolutes, there are always exceptions.
Always.

Absolutely! :D
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Anthriel
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Posted: Fri 28 Oct , 2005 4:58 pm
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halplm wrote:
I get you Ax. I don't think anyone is disputing the bad timing of the joke. The only reason I've argued the way I have is that it is evident that many people would feel the same at ANY time.
Poor hal.

I do NOT want to jump on the bandwagon here, I really don't. I resist the thought that after this post I will now be labeled as group A or B or something. So I am not going to comment on the problem with b77 issue here. You guys are doing great.

But I just have to ask a favor... could you please think through that sentence again? The logic of it really bothers me.

There is no evidence possible that would convince me EVER that anyone would feel any certain way under any circumstances. Just because someone objected to THIS thread with THIS tone in THIS place at THIS time, it is absolutely not possible to predict how they will they will feel when presented with a different dilemma down the path. You can guess, you can assume, but it is NOT evident.

I was in sales for many years, and the one thing that I took away from that experience is that you cannot project people's reactions. You just can't.

If you can accurately predict how anyone is going to react in the future to any situation, if that is "evident" to you, then I want to borrow your crystal ball.

Just sayin'.
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halplm
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Posted: Fri 28 Oct , 2005 5:10 pm
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Quote:
It would be my hope that people are more hesitant to attempt a mock thread in Bike Racks in the future because they are now aware that quite a few members object to that misuse of the forum.

<snip>

It isn't the joke that caused me to complain, it was the placement of the joke in the Bike Racks.

<snip>

I complained because a forum that has been explicitly set aside for people who need a place to work out a personal difficulty was used to stage a fake attempt at such.

<snip>

My complaint is that I don't think the joke should take place there, not that the joke should not take place at all.

Why would you joke less, and tone down posts because some members feel the Bike Racks shouldn't be used for mock dispute resolutions? Do you understand that the objection wasn't to the content of the thread, but to the placement of it?

<snip>

I do think that staging a mock dispute resolution in Bike Racks is inappropriate...


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Fri 28 Oct , 2005 5:54 pm
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Hal, all your quotes are from Cerin. Do you want to ask the Rangers to call a Hearing for Cerin?

If not, stop slamming her and move your life on to something else.

Jn

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Rodia
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Posted: Fri 28 Oct , 2005 5:59 pm
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I don't really see what is wrong with Cerin explaining why she thinks the Bikeracks aren't meant for joke threads.

I don't get it, hal...it feels like you're saying all complaints are bad by default. I totally don't understand how you can say it would be better if people didn't speak up about things that bother them. Sure, sometimes people can be arses and nitpick to cause a disturbance, but in this case Cerin is simply convinced that there was a need to speak up. Who are you or anyone else to decree that there was no such need? Who is anyone to decree that you too should shut up and stop complaining? I've been following this and reading all you say and still I don't understand. How can we possibly decide which complaints are valid and which are not? I think people's reactions to such complaints are what decides that. I think it's obvious that it's much better to let people say what they think, and then have the rest of the board agree or disagree and eventually find a satisfactory solution, than silence complaints before they are made. I don't see how that could be useful or fair at all.

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Cerin
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Posted: Fri 28 Oct , 2005 6:02 pm
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Jn, I think hal was just trying to point out that he think's Anthy's statement about not being able to predict things was incorrect in one particular, narrow sense. He can predict that I would object to someone staging a mock dispute resolution in Bike Racks based on those statements he quoted.

The thing is, I don't know why he seems so upset about that. It almost seems as though he feels I either shouldn't or don't have the right to hold that viewpoint, or that I shouldn't or don't have the right to express it on the board.
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Jnyusa
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Posted: Fri 28 Oct , 2005 6:07 pm
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He keeps referring to MANY people, Cerin, but brings all his examples from your posts.

If there were a generic problem, i.e. repeated complaints from multiple posters about what is going on in the Bike Racks, then I would say it is worth the many pages we've spent discussing the problem and we should try to reach an agreement.

But the only one still beating this horse is Hal and the only poster he is complaining about is you. I think this has passed the stage of legitimate discussion and entered the realm of personal attack. He's trying to get more people mad at Cerin and he's not going to give up until more people are mad at Cerin, and I object to that approach by any poster.

Jn

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halplm
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Posted: Fri 28 Oct , 2005 6:08 pm
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I never said people didn't have the "right" to do anything. My point always has been and still is, people should be more restrained in exercising thier "right" to tell others how to behave.

My only point, Jnyusa, in quoting Cerin was to show that there are some that very clearly would object to the joke thread at ANY time. According to Cerin, there are "quite a few."
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halplm
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Posted: Fri 28 Oct , 2005 6:10 pm
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I'm not trying to get anyone mad at anyone, Jnyusa.
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Rodia
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Posted: Fri 28 Oct , 2005 6:13 pm
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Hal, I could very well say that I can predict that the next time someone suggests a thread or post is inappropriate, you will be there saying 'the rules are more important than the posters' regardless of the thread, its placement, etc. Without restraining your right to tell others how to behave.

I don't understand why Cerin's complaint is being classified as her trying to impose her rule. She spoke up about something she thought was wrong, and I think that's what we all should be doing. That is what you're doing, Hal, and everyone is listening. How are you two different? What gives you more right?

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Cerin
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Posted: Fri 28 Oct , 2005 6:13 pm
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I think hal has pretty much admitted that he isn't talking about a pervasive problem on the board, or wishing 'people' would be more restrained about complaining in general.

I think he is basically saying that he wants me not to complain if someone should try staging a mock dispute resolution in Bike Racks again. I'm not sure why this is so important to him.

I think we understand your point hal, and I think we've pretty much discussed it to death.
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Jnyusa
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Posted: Fri 28 Oct , 2005 6:14 pm
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some

Cerin is ONE, not SOME, Hal.

I believe that when she said "some" she was referring to this particular instance, in which there was more than one person who complained about the presence of the thread while a tough mediation was going on.

If you feel this problem is widespread, Hal, I would seriously ask you to do what several posters have already asked you to do: take the time to find other instances. Because the repeated reference back to Cerin is feeling more and more like attempt to whip up anger against one particular poster and it is not nice at all to my taste.

Jn

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vison
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Posted: Fri 28 Oct , 2005 6:16 pm
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halplm wrote:
I'm not trying to get anyone mad at anyone, Jnyusa.
Then, change this: :bang:

To: :grouphug:

And move on. While there is nothing so valuable to a man as a grievance, there comes a time when it would make your life easier if you just chucked it away. Lighten the load, so to speak.

Just for good measure: halplm: :hug:
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halplm
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Posted: Fri 28 Oct , 2005 6:24 pm
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I hate to say it but I am not dragging this out. I was done. Ax asked if I understood him, I said yes, and then Anth wanted me not to say "ANY" and I defended my point.

I do not think it is only Cerin. I will not be making a list of "greivances," as that's not why I come here. I do not like complaining (despite what some of you may think), and am basically sick to death of this place entirely.

But I still come back time and time again? Why? Because I thought this place was something special. That is, I thought the people who came here were special. It turns out I was wrong... they're just people, same as anywhere else. Work, school, church, TORN, TORC, B77 it's all the same.

Ro, I understand why you think it's that way, and I don't blame you. I would try and explain why I disagree again, but I'm afraid that would just confuse the issue again.
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Anthriel
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Posted: Fri 28 Oct , 2005 6:33 pm
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Oh, hal. I am so sorry.

You do know that you are someone that I have always wanted to "meet", don't you? I admire your fire, I admire your intelligence, and I just have often wished that we could strike up a better acquaintance. You seem like a great guy to me, you always have, and I think we have many common points of interest.

All that being said, I'm going to pick apart your answer, a little. :sunny:


What you SAID was (bolding mine):
Quote:
I get you Ax. I don't think anyone is disputing the bad timing of the joke. The only reason I've argued the way I have is that it is evident that many people would feel the same at ANY time.

What it seems now that you MEANT to say was that you believe that Cerin would probably object to a joke thread (with, to some eyes, a mocking tone) being placed in the Bike Racks forum in the future.

Not "it is evident"... but that you believe this would be the case.

Not "many people"... but Cerin, specifically.

Not "feel the same at any time"... but who would probably react the same were the exact same instance replayed again.


With this, I might agree. ;)

:hug:


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