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The one week ban on sf and CG

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: The one week ban on sf and CG
Posted: Wed 26 Nov , 2008 9:21 pm
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Elian wrote:
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Since it appears that the rangers as a whole are determined to say "this action was taken by the rangers as a whole" that will complicate the process of calling for a hearing against the rule breaking rangers who suspended me for the offenses of another.

We aren't saying this - that is what happened. It is fact.
So when I call a hearing against the rangers who endorsed this rule breaking, I can pretty much rest assured that the rangers will unanimously say their activities should not be investigated?

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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LalaithUrwen
Post subject: Re: The one week ban on sf and CG
Posted: Wed 26 Nov , 2008 9:40 pm
The Grey Amaretto as Supermega-awesome Proud Heretic Girl
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Quote:
¶7: How to Contest the Decision of a Ranger

All Ranger decisions may be contested.

Disputes of a personal nature involving a Ranger can be resolved at the Bike Racks.

If a Ranger has convened a Hearing, then the member will explain their side of the issue at the Hearing.

Ranger decisions made while exercising routine powers (such as edits, moving threads, etc.) may be contested in the following way:
• The member affected by the action contacts the Ranger by PM or email and requests that the action be reviewed
• If the poster and the Ranger can reach an agreement between them, nothing else need be done. If the poster and the Ranger cannot agree, the poster can ask for an independent review.
• The independent review will be conducted by two other Rangers and one Jury member, and they will decide to overturn or uphold the original decision.
Of course, this wasn't a routine power issue. This was an extraordinary power issue.
Quote:
Procedures for Warnings to a Ranger
• The action or omission must be brought to the attention of the current
Rangers.
• Two Rangers must agree that a warning is justified.
• These two Rangers will notify the Ranger under complaint and give that person a chance to explain themselves. If the explanation is satisfactory, nothing more need be done.
• If two current Rangers still believe a warning is justified, they will write briefly the reason and forward this to the Mayor by email.
• If the current Rangers are in disagreement as to whether action is required, no warning will be filed.
• The record of warnings is maintained by the Mayor and does not become public unless it aggregates to a Formal Complaint.
• Warnings are purged after the Ranger leaves office.

Grounds for Formal Complaints Against a Ranger
• Three warnings for the same action or omission.
• Being absent from the board for more than two weeks and failing to notify the other Rangers in advance to arrange for a temporary Ranger.
• Deliberate unilateral actions for which the by-laws require a majority of Rangers to agree, or any other deliberate and direct violation of the by laws.
• Failing to convene and oversee a Hearing when required.

Procedure for Formal Complaints Against a Ranger
• The action or omission that is the basis of the Formal Complaint must be brought to the attention of the current Rangers.
• Two Rangers must agree that a Formal Complaint is justified.
• These two will notify the Ranger under complaint and give that person a chance to explain themselves. If the explanation is satisfactory, nothing more need be done.
• If the two current Rangers still believe a Formal Complaint is justified, they will write briefly the reason and forward this to the Mayor by email.
• If the current Rangers are in disagreement as to whether action is required, the Formal Complaint will be filed but it will be marked “Disputed.” Disputed complaints are purged when the Ranger’s term of office ends and will not bar them from serving as a temporary Ranger.

Time Limit and Penalty for Formal Complaints Against a Ranger
Formal complaints are kept on record for nine months following the end of a term of office. During that time, the member may not serve as a temporary Ranger or begin a new term of office as a full Ranger.

Grounds for Removal of a Ranger
• Desertion: A Ranger who deserts the board and cannot be contacted for a period of 30 days should be removed from office.
• Incoming Rangers must agree to resign if they will be away from the board for a period longer than than four full weeks, because it is not possible to replace them with a temporary Ranger. Such a resignation will not affect their eligibility to serve as a full Ranger in the future or as a temporary Ranger at any time, but their name will return to the bottom of the roster of full Rangers as if they had served their term. If a Ranger faces this circumstance and does not resign, then this is considered Grounds for Removal.
• Pattern of Absences, Failure to Respond and Other Warnings: If a series of warnings or violations results in three Formal Complaints, the other Rangers may consider whether to convene a hearing to remove that Ranger. If five Formal Complaints have been filed, a hearing is required.
• Extreme Abuse of Power: a hearing may be convened if a Ranger deliberately and maliciously bans a member who is entitled to a hearing or suspends posting rights without due process, except in the course of exercising extraordinary powers.
• An Immediate Hearing is required if a Ranger:
1. reveals private information obtained as a result of their office, such as profile information that members have made hidden or the contents of secret ballots cast by PM or email;
2. gives another poster access to the administrator panel;
3. uses the board to boast about criminal behaviors and/or encourage other posters to engage in them.

Procedure for Removal of a Ranger
• Two Rangers must agree that the charges against a Ranger are sufficiently serious and not manufactured, and that a hearing is justified. The Ranger who is considered for removal will be notified by PM and by email, and the call for a hearing will be posted in the Jury Room.
• The posting rights of the Ranger in question will be restricted to the Jury Room and administrative powers will be revoked for the duration of the hearing.

Lali

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: The one week ban on sf and CG
Posted: Wed 26 Nov , 2008 9:42 pm
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CG ... I have a question for you. I take it that you recieved the same instructions that I did months ago .... a strict warning that if you and I continued to debate we would get a weeks suspension? Is that correct?

You or I, or both of us could have appealed that ruling at that time.... but neither one of us did so. We continued to post knowing what could happen. By posting and not appealing that ruling I accepted the eventual results of a future possible infraction of the prohibition.

Are you saying you were not informed as I was informed or your appeal at that time was ignored?

I am not debating you here -- just trying to figure if you were warned as I was.

Last edited by sauronsfinger on Wed 26 Nov , 2008 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: The one week ban on sf and CG
Posted: Wed 26 Nov , 2008 9:52 pm
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Lalaith, unfortunately that doesn't answer the question. The rangers are closing ranks and saying "this was done by the rangers, Riverthalos was merely the one who pushed the button."

That means that because "the rangers" acted outside of the rules, in order to get a hearing on their actions I must therefore get two of them willing to have their own activities examined.

And if no ranger is willing to put up with self examination, that means any calls for examination of rule breaking by "the rangers" will fail. The rules will remain broken without examination.

_________________

It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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yovargas
Post subject: Re: The one week ban on sf and CG
Posted: Wed 26 Nov , 2008 10:29 pm
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For fuck's sake, this ain't a goddamn court of law, it's just a group of people hanging out trying to have a good time. You two pissed off a lot of that group so they kicked you out for a while. Suck it up and take it like a man.


Lord. How the hell do you people interact in RL when there aren't Rangers and Charters to go crying on about.


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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: The one week ban on sf and CG
Posted: Wed 26 Nov , 2008 10:34 pm
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for yovargas :cheers:

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: The one week ban on sf and CG
Posted: Wed 26 Nov , 2008 10:43 pm
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When "the rangers" break the rules, don't expect me to be "nice" about it. I'll fight it like a man.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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yovargas
Post subject: Re: The one week ban on sf and CG
Posted: Wed 26 Nov , 2008 10:44 pm
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Is that what you'd do in real life if a group told you you were being annoying and asked you to leave?


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Rebecca
Post subject: Re: The one week ban on sf and CG
Posted: Wed 26 Nov , 2008 10:44 pm
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Well, you're one of the only posters who thinks the Rangers broke the rules.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject: Re: The one week ban on sf and CG
Posted: Wed 26 Nov , 2008 10:45 pm
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Not that I want to get involved here, but there is the point that CG is making that the charter doesn't handle: if the rangers act unanimously, but one pushes the button, how would a member call a hearing against all of the rangers when two of them have to agree. If the rangers stand united on a decision, either people may not be willing to push buttons so as to avoid blame, or the membership would be at a disadvantage--democratically speaking. An independent review is supposed to be done by two rangers and a juror. If the issue is with the rangers as a whole, who may be standing united, what would a member do? I suppose we will all find out. Actually, I think this is kind of an interesting issue.

Distraction over.

ETA:
rebecca wrote:
Well, you're one of the only posters who thinks the Rangers broke the rules.
Does there have to be a majority of posters who think the rangers broke the rules?

Last edited by TheEllipticalDisillusion on Wed 26 Nov , 2008 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: The one week ban on sf and CG
Posted: Wed 26 Nov , 2008 10:47 pm
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Distraction? You stated the problem very clearly TED.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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Holbytla
Post subject: Re: The one week ban on sf and CG
Posted: Wed 26 Nov , 2008 10:47 pm
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You know yov that is the thing. I agree with your philosophy in princible that we shouldn't need rules to go hang out at a park and talk to each other. It would be silly to even think of such a thing. And I know damned well nothing of the kind would happen in my presence.

The problem is this monitor and hundreds of miles between people. It dehumanizes things and makes people act in ways they wouldn't in person. Why it is so hard to act like you are in the same room with the person you are speaking to is beyond me.

But that is why we have to stoop to roools and act like hall monitors. We are at the park, but a few people are screeching at each other with trumpets and we can no longer converse in peace.

We can leave and go some place else, or we can see that poster's rights are not infringed upon by selfish people.

I plan on taking the latter route and to be honest, my tolerance level is mighty low. I will err on the side of common sense and peace of mind.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject: Re: The one week ban on sf and CG
Posted: Wed 26 Nov , 2008 10:50 pm
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No one has ever voted to void the charter, so pretend this is a park all you want, but a governing culture has been established here. You can't ignore the people who buy into the culture simply because you don't.

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: The one week ban on sf and CG
Posted: Wed 26 Nov , 2008 10:56 pm
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Look - if the ruling that CG and I could not debate each other or risk a suspension, was not the time to appeal that ruling when it was made? When we were notified of it, and then continued to post here without any complaint, was that not taken as an act of acceptance by us?

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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Holbytla
Post subject: Re: The one week ban on sf and CG
Posted: Wed 26 Nov , 2008 10:57 pm
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That is right, and part of that culture seeks to give the posters an environment free of disruption by a few people. And it also gives the rangers the power to do exactly that.

edit xposted with SF.

SF I don't think silence can imply acceptance, but honestly there are no surprises to anyone here. The end of the road has been reached. Rightly or wrongly the rangers will act to ensure an environment conducive to civil posting.

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halplm
Post subject: Re: The one week ban on sf and CG
Posted: Wed 26 Nov , 2008 11:02 pm
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An act of acceptance, to move on, does not mean it was the right thing to do, only that people dont' want to deal with it any more.

Holby, part of our culture is also that people self moderate, and member moderate, and when people refuse to do that, the rangers have to be willign to do something to maintain the level of respect we are all suposed to have for each other.

board disruption is not the most important thing to stop from happening. Abuse of the freedoms we have that eliminate the possibility for respectful depate should be the number one priority for rangers to stop.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject: Re: The one week ban on sf and CG
Posted: Wed 26 Nov , 2008 11:05 pm
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I think silence as acceptance would be bad form.

It does, Holby. And at the same time, the disruptors have the same rights. I just don't think of this place as a park, and I think the analogy is faulty.

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Holbytla
Post subject: Re: The one week ban on sf and CG
Posted: Wed 26 Nov , 2008 11:05 pm
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Quote:
board disruption is not the most important thing to stop from happening.
Disagree. Past experience has taught me otherwise.
So there you go. We disagree philosophically.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject: Re: The one week ban on sf and CG
Posted: Wed 26 Nov , 2008 11:07 pm
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Knowing this board, it is an understandable philosophy, Holby.

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halplm
Post subject: Re: The one week ban on sf and CG
Posted: Wed 26 Nov , 2008 11:09 pm
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Yes, obviously, which is why we're having this nice discussion :P

The reason disruptions happen, is because some people are not able to post in that serene environment where their views are respected and discussed without people resorting to personal attacks and harrassment via intellectually dishonest debate tactics, and nothing is done about it.

So once again, which do you want to treat, the symptom (the disruption) or the source?

All that's ever been done here is treat the symptoms, and that's why this will never stop happening.

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